Plumbers. Bless them.

[doitall]

Thanks for the message bas.

Typical rantings of an Old tart with dementia and a shortage of active brain cells. Do you still wet the bed

 

[securespark]

Bas is obviously not on DIA's ignore list....

 

[doitall]

Bas is obviously not on DIA's ignore list....

Oh yes he is.

 

[EFLImpudence]

 

[SaladFingers]

Thanks for the message bas.

Typical rantings of an Old tart with dementia and a shortage of active brain cells. Do you still wet the bed

He's one in a million, our Bas

 

[EFLImpudence]

Where are Dunning and Kruger when you need them?

 

[vulcancontinental]

What if the boiler is changed?

I've enjoyed the thread and the various viewpoints. As I said earlier I'm not an electrician but ask seriously regarding the post above and not directed at BAS alone.

A proper electrician does come to a job where the earlier installer, for arguments sake a heating engineer or DYer or sparky not up to date, has put in 3 core on an analogue stat, Live in, Neutral, Switched Line back to whatever, boiler or valve. No earth core.

What would you expect the electrician to do?

1: Put another analogue stat in that requires no earth in the manufacturer's instructions (though he knows the regs say the cable should contain an additional CPC even if it's not used).

2 Put a digital stat in that requires only line in and switched out using say the neutral core for earth and sleeved but not connected (don't know if that is allowed but there would then be an additional core to use as an earth later).

3: Re-run the whole lot again removing carpets and boards etc.

4: Putting in a wireless stat but cutting off the old cable so it couldn't be used again is a no-no because you can't find one that's suitable (obviously I'm being awkward here but just for the sake of discussion not argument).

 

[EFLImpudence]

A proper electrician does come to a job where the earlier installer, for arguments sake a heating engineer or DYer or sparky not up to date, has put in 3 core on an analogue stat, Live in, Neutral, Switched Line back to whatever, boiler or valve. No earth core.

What would you expect the electrician to do?

1: Put another analogue stat in that requires no earth in the manufacturer's instructions (though he knows the regs say the cable should contain an additional CPC even if it's not used).

No. You don't seem to have grasped the last twenty three pages.
Put in a thermostat that doesn't require a NEUTRAL.
Connect the CPC at the wiring centre.

2 Put a digital stat in that requires only line in and switched out using say the neutral core for earth and sleeved but not connected (don't know if that is allowed but there would then be an additional core to use as an earth later).

What are you talking about?
Use Brown for L in, Blue for SL out and G/Y for CPC

3: Re-run the whole lot again removing carpets and boards etc.

Not necessary.

4: Putting in a wireless stat but cutting off the old cable so it couldn't be used again is a no-no because you can't find one that's suitable (obviously I'm being awkward here but just for the sake of discussion not argument).

The cable isn't a no-no. It's the plumbers' use of the cable that is the no-no.


I am beginning to despair.

 

[vulcancontinental]

A proper electrician does come to a job where the earlier installer, for arguments sake a heating engineer or DYer or sparky not up to date, has put in 3 core on an analogue stat, Live in, Neutral, Switched Line back to whatever, boiler or valve. No earth core.

What would you expect the electrician to do?

1: Put another analogue stat in that requires no earth in the manufacturer's instructions (though he knows the regs say the cable should contain an additional CPC even if it's not used).

No. You don't seem to have grasped the last twenty three pages.
Put in a thermostat that doesn't require a NEUTRAL.
Connect the CPC at the wiring centre.

2 Put a digital stat in that requires only line in and switched out using say the neutral core for earth and sleeved but not connected (don't know if that is allowed but there would then be an additional core to use as an earth later).

What are you talking about?
Use Brown for L in, Blue for SL out and G/Y for CPC

3: Re-run the whole lot again removing carpets and boards etc.

Not necessary.

4: Putting in a wireless stat but cutting off the old cable so it couldn't be used again is a no-no because you can't find one that's suitable (obviously I'm being awkward here but just for the sake of discussion not argument).

The cable isn't a no-no. It's the plumbers' use of the cable that is the no-no.


I am beginning to despair.

My apologies for making you despair. I asked the questions politely and might well have been asking because possibly I didn't grasp the previous 22 pages.

I believe I do and took pains to be quietly inquisitive rather than confrontational.

Lesson learned.

Will not bother you again.

 

[SimonH2]

Don't take EFLImpudence's reply as a personal attack. After 22 pages of discussions it's easy to get "a bit ratty" if the same question comes up again.

Taking the situation you come up with, then the only options the electrician would have would be :
1) Install a wired stat that doesn't need a neutral
2) Install a wireless stat where he can install the receiver close to the boiler (or wiring centre) and connect it with the right cable - he wouldn't have to cut back the old cable, just make sure that it is safely terminated.
3) Replace the cable with the right type

If none of these are allowed, then the electrician really should inform the customer of the nature of the problem and walk away. Doing that may be hard, but it's the only safe* action - you've not installed or worked on the dangerous installation, and you've informed the customer of the defect, you can't force the customer to fix it.
* Especially from the legal point of view.


Any cable likely to be used in a domestic environment would have one of the three cores intended to be used as a CPC (aka "earth") and either bare (in T&E flat cable) or insulated green/yellow in other types. So you'd never have a situation where there wasn't a CPC core to use for the CPC - ie you wouldn't need to sleeve a different core with green/yellow.

Just to throw in another variation, one also comes across jobs where (say) the lighting only needs 2 cores, so the b***ard (nearly said installer) cuts the CPC back. Usually this is done with cables that are plastered in so you can't pull another inch or two through to get a usable CPC



NB - in a piece cable there is no such thing as "the live core", "the neutral core", etc. You simply have cores which may be coloured, numbered, or otherwise identified*. What they are is determined by what they get connected to - so a blue insulated core only becomes a neutral when it's connected to a neutral point in a circuit, and a brown only becomes a live when connected to a live point in a circuit. Especially in switched circuits, a blue core may not be neutral - it's often a switched live, in which case it should be oversleeved with brown to indicate that.
Just to confuse matters, since harmonisation it is even more complicated. Open up a bit of trunking in a 3 phase system and you will find blue wires which could be a neutral (new colours) or phase (old colours), and black wires that could be neutral (old colours) or phase (new colours).

 

[EFLImpudence]

My apologies.

I mistakenly thought you were another doitall.

 

[viewer]

Just to cheer up people.

I took the advice given, measured the resistance bath - MET (>99999), removed the link to MET from bath and I now have a safer house.

So, even if there were 23 pages of knitting, the debate has done some practical good as well as being educational.

 

[doitall]

My apologies.

I mistakenly thought you were another doitall.

Are you actually registered with any body.

Be interested to know what they say.

 

[ecowarrior]

My apologies for making you despair. I asked the questions politely and might well have been asking because possibly I didn't grasp the previous 22 pages.

I believe I do and took pains to be quietly inquisitive rather than confrontational.

I appreciate this thread has been a bit 'tense' but its sad when posters (in this case me& VC ) want to be educated by you chaps and things seem to degenerate into abuse. I - like 'viewer' have been educated by this post. Every day a learning day. We are fortunate in the Combustion Chamber as apart from the odd personality fall out there is no abuse and 99% posters are genuinely trying to help each other resolve some issue. The amount of research some people go to in order to help is brilliant.

The Do It Alls of this world have their place on these forums. He is a bitty of a devils advocate on the CC but 10 pages on everyone has gained some more info or at least seen things from a different viewpoint. DIA's knuckles most certainly do not drag on the ground.

I am about to post a sort of sparky question on your forum now. I hope I can get some constructive help rather than being called a **** & cowboy etc because I don't know the answer and by default must be a moron.

 

[EFLImpudence]

My apologies.
I mistakenly thought you were another doitall.

Are you actually registered with any body.
Be interested to know what they say.

What difference would it make? Have I written anything which is incorrect?
That is - factually incorrect, not just what you will not accept.

You are just being awkward. Aren't you?

For other posters benefit it would be better if you stopped trying to wind up people and accept the answers you have been given.

If you really don't believe the answers are correct there is not much point keeping on.

Try somewhere else.