Plumbers. Bless them.

[bernardgreen]

CPC CIRCUIT Protective Conductor


PPC PERSON Protective Conductor

So do we have a PPC ? There is a subtle difference in function

 

[doitall]

But what or who are you protecting.

You are protecting anyone who uses or work on the installation. You are also making sure that your work is compliant with all applicable regulations.

..and also (particularly if an RCD is present) there is the person who accidentally cuts, otherwise damages, or puts a nail through, the cable.

Kind Regards, John

Mate of mine put a cable through a blue pe water pipe and run power to his shed.

Probably the most dangerous thing I've ever seen.

 

[JohnW2]

CPC CIRCUIT Protective Conductor
PPC PERSON Protective Conductor
So do we have a PPC ? There is a subtle difference in function

I still don't understand what you were thanking doitall for. He asked "who or what" was being protected by a CPC, I suspect intending to suggest (rhetorically) that he didn't think it protected anything/anyone - at least, in the scenario we were discussing. Even if one applied your semantic argument above, the answer to his question would be simple - i.e. 'the circuit'.

However, as you know as well as I do, the conductor in question is often/usually dual purpose, being part of the systems that protect both the circuit and persons. Even without RCDs, ADS may well 'protect the circuit', but it is also one of the primary measures to reduce the risk of electric shock. I suppose that they could have decided to call it CPPC, but they didn't - and I think that by raising this semantic issue you could well be perpetuating some of doitall's misunderstandings.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

Mate of mine put a cable through a blue pe water pipe and run power to his shed. Probably the most dangerous thing I've ever seen.

Once upon a time, that (or even just hose pipe) was common practice - the garage supply in my last house was done like that (and that situation quite probably persists today). It obviously poses some (very small) risks, but there are far far more dangerous things out there. What was your point?

Kind Regards, John

 

[doitall]

I don't have any misunderstandings.

if I put a nail through a live wire what will happen, the cpc as you call it remains undamaged. I believe this is what happened to the mps daughter.

Same question with the neutral.

Should I decide to cut the control wire with my best side cutters, to my boiler (no cpc) would I get a darwin award, forgetting the plastic 1000v rating on them, or would the 2amp fuse blow.

 

[doitall]

Mate of mine put a cable through a blue pe water pipe and run power to his shed. Probably the most dangerous thing I've ever seen.

Once upon a time, that (or even just hose pipe) was common practice - the garage supply in my last house was done like that (and that situation quite probably persists today). It obviously poses some (very small) risks, but there are far far more dangerous things out there. What was your point?

Kind Regards, John

My Point.

I'm standing in a foot of water and I put my cutters through the water pipe to add a connection.

Now theres a surprise a 240v cable, would the cpc save me.

 

[JohnW2]

if I put a nail through a live wire what will happen, the cpc as you call it remains undamaged. I believe this is what happened to the mps daughter.

There is no panacea, but having a CPC increases the chances that a nail which hits the live conductor will also come in contact with something else which will cause a protective device to operate.

Same question with the neutral. ... Should I decide to cut the control wire with my best side cutters, to my boiler (no cpc) would I get a darwin award, forgetting the plastic 1000v rating on them, or would the 2amp fuse blow.

Essentially the same answer ... the presence of a CPC increases the chances that a fuse will blow, or an MCB or RCD will operate.

However, these discussions are merely attempting to explain/justify why the regulations require what they require (which may or not be sensible/rational). The fact remains that if you want to be complinat with the regulations, you have to have a CPC, regardless of what you think of the regs. Full stop.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

My Point. I'm standing in a foot of water and I put my cutters through the water pipe to add a connection. Now theres a surprise a 240v cable, would the cpc save me.

Quite probably not - but are you now arguing against CPCs in general?

Kind Regards, John

 

[doitall]

I'll just have to listen to the experts in that case, 4-1 in my favour so far.

Now who else shall I ask.

Been a good discussion though, very educational, but only because I can't see the **** bas posted probably.

 

[doitall]

My Point. I'm standing in a foot of water and I put my cutters through the water pipe to add a connection. Now theres a surprise a 240v cable, would the cpc save me.

Quite probably not - but are you now arguing against CPCs in general?

Kind Regards, John

Not in the least, if whatever is hanging on the end of the cable need a cpc then it should be so and fused accordingly.

Sticking a cpc in just for the fun of it is pathetic and does nothing for safety.

Does that reg apply in Europe. ?

 

[Monkeh]

Sticking a cpc in just for the fun of it is pathetic and does nothing for safety.

It does plenty for safety when that CPC happens to be the armour of a cable. And yes, the cable should be armoured.

If you do it all properly, it all has a purpose. When you start cutting corners, however..

 

[JohnW2]

I'll just have to listen to the experts in that case, 4-1 in my favour so far. Now who else shall I ask.

If you're talking specifically about 'oversleeving', I think you can probably take it that there is general agreement (even if there is one dissenter) that there is nothing in the regs which explicitly forbids it - so there's really no need to ask anyone else.

However, unless I'm mistaken,you have not yet found a single person or organisation, expert or otherwise, who has explicitly told you that it's OK to omit the CPC. Given your interest in expert opinion, I think that's what you should be asking everyone. No-one in this forum has said that it's OK.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I don't quite understand how you think a volt free stat works

He doesn't have a clue - has no conception that there could still be 230V there - depends entirely on the boiler.

 

[JohnW2]

Sticking a cpc in just for the fun of it is pathetic and does nothing for safety.

That is a view which you are entitled to have, and which others may support to varying degrees - but it is not the view of the regs. As I said, if you want to be compliant with BS7671 (maybe you're not bothered?) you have no choice but to comply with BS7671 as written, even if you disagree with what it says.

Does that reg apply in Europe. ?

BS7671, per se, doesn't apply in 'Europe' (other than the UK!). I have no idea about the regulations which do apply in Europe, but some others here might know.

Kind Regards, John

 

[doitall]

I thought the regs was supposed to be harmonised with Europe. ?

Lets assume you guys are correct, what percentage in the uk would you say doesn't comply, being installed before the change 80-90% perhaps.

How do you lable it NCS ( not to current standards) or do you suck lots of fresh air through teeth and suggest a re-wire, what about an old CU with real fuse wire.