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Vinty said:
Ugandan Asians or the Hindu community are 2 examples of non white immigrants who have thrived in the UK.
Click to expand...

Bobby Dazzler said:
Any data to support your claim?
Or is it just a shot in the dark?
Click to expand...

They fled with nothing but built a new empire | Race | The Guardian

They fled with nothing but built a new empire
As the immigration debate rages, Paul Harris tells the success story of the Ugandan Asians who arrived 30 years ago

Jaffer Kapasi arrived in Britain with nothing. He was 18 years old and all that his family owned had been stolen when Ugandan dictator Idi Amin gave his country's Asian community 90 days to pack up and leave.

When he emerged into a wet October morning at Stansted airport in 1972, Kapasi was confused. 'I was shivering and realised it was nothing to do with an African fever. It was the cold. I hadn't been cold before,' he said.



But Kapasi flourished in his new home. So too did the 27,000 other Ugandan Asians who arrived that year. In a remarkable story of triumph, those penniless refugees are now Britain's most successful immigrant community. From arriving with only the clothes on their backs, Ugandan Asians have risen to the top in all walks of British life.

On the way they had to defy warnings that there was no space for them in crowded Britain. It is a debate that continues today. Last week the right-wing think-tank MigrationWatch claimed immigrants would fill a city the size of Cambridge every six months. It would be a disaster, it said, warning of job losses and lack of housing.

But for some campaigners the successes of the Ugandan Asians over the past 30 years sends the opposite message: immigrants represent opportunity, not a threat.

It is easy to find Ugandan Asian success stories. In politics Shailesh Vara is now vice-chairman of the Conservative Party while Lata Patel was Mayor of Brent. In the media Yasmin Alibhai-Brown is one of Britain's most distinguished columnists. Asif Din was an accomplished Warwickshire cricketer, while Tarique Ghaffur is the deputy assistant commissioner of the Metropolitan Police. 'What a thought! That I could end up vice-chairman of the Conservative Party when I was born in Uganda all those years ago,' said Vara.

It is in business that Ugandan Asians have made the biggest impact. Industrialist Manubhai Madhvani is a regular in the annual Rich Lists. He lost all in 1972. Now his world empire, with interests in sugar, brewing and tourism, is worth £160 million.

In Leicester, where many Ugandan Asians settled, their presence has transformed the city from a depressed and deprived East Midlands town. It is estimated they have created 30,000 jobs there. In the most affluent suburb of Oadby - or Load-by as locals call it - the residents are overwhelmingly Ugandan Asian.

Shops bear names such as Kampala Jewellers and the driveways are full of top-of-the-range Mercedes outside houses worth £500,000. It is here that Kapasi made his fortune. After university, he trained as an accountant and set up a financial consultancy business.

He has served as a head of the powerful - and Ugandan Asian-dominated - Leicester Asian Business Association. In 1997 he was awarded an OBE. Two of his brothers own their own hardware business, another is the group accountant at an agricultural firm. His two sisters hold top positions at Nottingham University and a London council. Not bad for impoverished refugees from the Ugandan village of Masindi. 'We have been very happy here. We have done well,' he said.

Most Asians living in Uganda thought the order to leave was a joke. As the descendants of Indians brought over to build railways during the days of the British Empire, many had lived in Uganda for generations. They had formed a wealthy mercantile class, owning shops, factories and plantations. They put the outburst down to yet another mood swing from their insane President. But Amin was serious. It took only a few weeks, some jailings and public beatings for that to be made clear.

Kapasi heard the news when he came from college after lunch. Two months later his family was daring roadblocks in a desperate bid to get to Entebbe airport and the last transport home. Abandoning everything but what they could fit into a van, they trundled towards Kampala, being looted by Ugandan soldiers at every stop.

They owed their safety to an officer who had shopped at a store owned by Kapasi's father. He agreed to accompany them to the airport. 'We were in total fear. They were taking everything valuable,' said Kapasi.

Britain's first reaction to the Ugandan Asians was frosty. National Front marches were held and the racist party was riding high in the opinion polls. Leicester city council - on hearing that many intended to move there - placed an advert in the Ugandan Argus. It warned of no houses, no jobs and full schools. 'In your own interests and those of your family you should... not come to Leicester,' it read.

They came anyway. Now Leicester will be Britain's first ethnic majority city by 2011 and the fact is touted as a source of civic pride.

But what lay behind Ugandan Asian success? The answer seems to be hard work. Arriving with nothing, they quickly set about trying to rebuild the luxurious lives they had lived in East Africa. 'They never seem to retire,' said Professor Richard Bonney of Leicester University, who has studied the community.

That rings true for Manubhai Madhvani, the richest of all Ugandan Asians. He is now 73 and still works a five-day week at his Hampstead-based business. 'It is simple. When something is stolen from you, then you fight hard to get it back,' he said.

Ugandan Asians were also highly educated and familiar with British customs. Though Amin took their possessions, they had not lost their skills, university degrees or network of community contacts that would see their businesses rise from the ashes. They helped each other to help themselves. 'You can take someone's money, but you cannot take their know-how,' Madhvani said.

Ugandan Asians were also not riven with the community disputes that other immigrants often brought with them. They are made up of Sikhs, Hindus and Muslims, yet all work together.

For Madhvani the importance of tolerance was reinforced by his experience in one of Amin's prisons. He had been arrested due to his high status and huge wealth. While struggling to survive with other political prisoners - of all races - in Kampala's foetid jail, he saw they suffered equally.'I learnt that all human beings are the same,' he said.

Ironically, the success of the Ugandan Asian community could see it die out. So well has it assimilated to life in Britain that memories of its African past are disappearing. Kapasi has two children and their links to Africa mean little to them. 'They are more British than the British themselves,' he said.

It is a split that divides the community, between those who remember a childhood under an African sun and those who grew up in Britain, playing football and going to British schools.

In Leicester, there are no plans to commemorate the thirtieth anniversary of their expulsion. 'We have been far too busy celebrating the jubilee of the Queen,' Kapasi said.
 
fillyboy said:
They fled with nothing but built a new empire | Race | The Guardian

They fled with nothing but built a new empire
As the immigration debate rages, Paul Harris tells the success story of the Ugandan Asians who arrived 30 years ago

Jaffer Kapasi arrived in Britain with nothing. He was 18 years old and all that his family owned had been stolen when Ugandan dictator Idi Amin gave his country's Asian community 90 days to pack up and leave.

When he emerged into a wet October morning at Stansted airport in 1972, Kapasi was confused. 'I was shivering and realised it was nothing to do with an African fever. It was the cold. I hadn't been cold before,' he said.



But Kapasi flourished in his new home. So too did the 27,000 other Ugandan Asians who arrived that year. In a remarkable story of triumph, those penniless refugees are now Britain's most successful immigrant community. From arriving with only the clothes on their backs, Ugandan Asians have risen to the top in all walks of British life.

On the way they had to defy warnings that there was no space for them in crowded Britain. It is a debate that continues today. Last week the right-wing think-tank MigrationWatch claimed immigrants would fill a city the size of Cambridge every six months. It would be a disaster, it said, warning of job losses and lack of housing.

But for some campaigners the successes of the Ugandan Asians over the past 30 years sends the opposite message: immigrants represent opportunity, not a threat.

It is easy to find Ugandan Asian success stories. In politics Shailesh Vara is now vice-chairman of the Conservative Party while Lata Patel was Mayor of Brent. In the media Yasmin Alibhai-Brown is one of Britain's most distinguished columnists. Asif Din was an accomplished Warwickshire cricketer, while Tarique Ghaffur is the deputy assistant commissioner of the Metropolitan Police. 'What a thought! That I could end up vice-chairman of the Conservative Party when I was born in Uganda all those years ago,' said Vara.

It is in business that Ugandan Asians have made the biggest impact. Industrialist Manubhai Madhvani is a regular in the annual Rich Lists. He lost all in 1972. Now his world empire, with interests in sugar, brewing and tourism, is worth £160 million.

In Leicester, where many Ugandan Asians settled, their presence has transformed the city from a depressed and deprived East Midlands town. It is estimated they have created 30,000 jobs there. In the most affluent suburb of Oadby - or Load-by as locals call it - the residents are overwhelmingly Ugandan Asian.

Shops bear names such as Kampala Jewellers and the driveways are full of top-of-the-range Mercedes outside houses worth £500,000. It is here that Kapasi made his fortune. After university, he trained as an accountant and set up a financial consultancy business.

He has served as a head of the powerful - and Ugandan Asian-dominated - Leicester Asian Business Association. In 1997 he was awarded an OBE. Two of his brothers own their own hardware business, another is the group accountant at an agricultural firm. His two sisters hold top positions at Nottingham University and a London council. Not bad for impoverished refugees from the Ugandan village of Masindi. 'We have been very happy here. We have done well,' he said.

Most Asians living in Uganda thought the order to leave was a joke. As the descendants of Indians brought over to build railways during the days of the British Empire, many had lived in Uganda for generations. They had formed a wealthy mercantile class, owning shops, factories and plantations. They put the outburst down to yet another mood swing from their insane President. But Amin was serious. It took only a few weeks, some jailings and public beatings for that to be made clear.

Kapasi heard the news when he came from college after lunch. Two months later his family was daring roadblocks in a desperate bid to get to Entebbe airport and the last transport home. Abandoning everything but what they could fit into a van, they trundled towards Kampala, being looted by Ugandan soldiers at every stop.

They owed their safety to an officer who had shopped at a store owned by Kapasi's father. He agreed to accompany them to the airport. 'We were in total fear. They were taking everything valuable,' said Kapasi.

Britain's first reaction to the Ugandan Asians was frosty. National Front marches were held and the racist party was riding high in the opinion polls. Leicester city council - on hearing that many intended to move there - placed an advert in the Ugandan Argus. It warned of no houses, no jobs and full schools. 'In your own interests and those of your family you should... not come to Leicester,' it read.

They came anyway. Now Leicester will be Britain's first ethnic majority city by 2011 and the fact is touted as a source of civic pride.

But what lay behind Ugandan Asian success? The answer seems to be hard work. Arriving with nothing, they quickly set about trying to rebuild the luxurious lives they had lived in East Africa. 'They never seem to retire,' said Professor Richard Bonney of Leicester University, who has studied the community.

That rings true for Manubhai Madhvani, the richest of all Ugandan Asians. He is now 73 and still works a five-day week at his Hampstead-based business. 'It is simple. When something is stolen from you, then you fight hard to get it back,' he said.

Ugandan Asians were also highly educated and familiar with British customs. Though Amin took their possessions, they had not lost their skills, university degrees or network of community contacts that would see their businesses rise from the ashes. They helped each other to help themselves. 'You can take someone's money, but you cannot take their know-how,' Madhvani said.

Ugandan Asians were also not riven with the community disputes that other immigrants often brought with them. They are made up of Sikhs, Hindus and Muslims, yet all work together.

For Madhvani the importance of tolerance was reinforced by his experience in one of Amin's prisons. He had been arrested due to his high status and huge wealth. While struggling to survive with other political prisoners - of all races - in Kampala's foetid jail, he saw they suffered equally.'I learnt that all human beings are the same,' he said.

Ironically, the success of the Ugandan Asian community could see it die out. So well has it assimilated to life in Britain that memories of its African past are disappearing. Kapasi has two children and their links to Africa mean little to them. 'They are more British than the British themselves,' he said.

It is a split that divides the community, between those who remember a childhood under an African sun and those who grew up in Britain, playing football and going to British schools.

In Leicester, there are no plans to commemorate the thirtieth anniversary of their expulsion. 'We have been far too busy celebrating the jubilee of the Queen,' Kapasi said.
Click to expand...
Exactly the argument that I've made repeatedly.
Newly arrived African immigrants have not been subjected to racial inequality in UK all their lives. Therefore their aspirations have not been subdued and supressed all their lives. They have not grown up expecting and receiving unequal treatment. Their parents never found it necessary to educate their children about racism in UK.
It's the exception that Dr Sewell used to argue that discrimination against Black people should not restrict their aspirations and ambitions.
But Dr Sewell failed to differentiate between newly arrived African immigrants, who have not been subjected to racial discrimination and abuse all their lives, and the subsequent generations of other Black people who were born in UK, and have been subjected to racial discrimination and abuse all their lives.

I made this argument with Vinty, when he claimed that Black people can progress up the socio economic ladder.
Newly arrived immigrants to UK can and do. But Black people born in UK who have been oppressed, racially discriminated against and abused all their lives, who's parents end up in the lower socio economic positions are born into poverty, oppression and the 'lower classes'.
Dr Sewell tried to make the argument that it's more class then race that affects a person's social mobility. But he failed to recognise, or to investigate what determines one's position in society.
 
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upload_2021-4-4_19-51-2.png


Lower said:
Why do children of Black African heritage outperform children of Afro Caribbean heritage despite being in the same classrooms.
Click to expand...

Bobby Dazzler said:
I believe Dr Sewell presented this as his justification for why racism is not an important factor in inequality.
However, he presents the answer, yet fails to realise that it is the answer.
African immigrants who perform well tend to be first generation immigrants and have not suffered discrimination and prejudice since birth. Therefore their aspirations and ambitions have not been supressed by a racist society. Subsequent generations of African immigrants become the product of inequality and suffer the same reduced aspirations.
Those of Afro Caribbean heritage tend to be second or subsequent generation of immigrants. They and their parents and older relatives have been oppressed in UK from prejudice and discrimination. They are the very product of years of inequality, and continue to be so. They are the children of the Windrush generation that consider themselves British, but the system does not.
Click to expand...

Vinty said:
It could be that a lot of black African immigrants tend to have good qualifications when they arrive in Britain.This is why their children tend to work harder at school and are more aspirational than their Afro/Caribbean counterparts.
Click to expand...
Bobby Dazzler said:
Yes, I could accept that as another feasible explanation. It also undermines Dr Sewell's assumption.
Either way, the parents and /or the children are not long term sufferers of structural inequality.
Click to expand...

You were trying to make a point?
I challenged Vinty to find some data to support an argument that we had several pages ago. You found some data to support that argument we had established pages ago.
In addition Lower offered another feasible explanatory factor.
 
Notch7 said:
Tories wont do an impact assessment on Brexit
Click to expand...
Too early to do an impact assessment of Brexit.
It has only been about 3 months since Brexit became official.
It could take years before the full impact becomes known.
This N. I. Protocol and other issues still have to be resolved.
 
Last edited:
Structural whatever ****ing next. Complete load of toss.

I gather this came from cockwomble 1 2 3 or hmm one of their idiocy clan.

I have suffered fking everything ism all my life. For being too this n that, lost jobs deals and all sorts it’s called life whoever said it should be easy. Seems easier for some but many others are good at making it look easy.
And that’s normally the sign of someone good at what they do.

Sure there are prejudicial people of all colours and races in this country we should live as one and we should also stop fking blaming people when it simply isn’t their fault. Brush tar etc..
Work hard and you will be rewarded no one ever said it would be easy though. Money isn’t racist.

Im still learning this myself, a lad my age I got to know better lately he’s comfortable but only recently did I realise how fking hard he works for it. Lucky he isn’t.
 
Vinty said:
Any examples of structural discrimination.
Click to expand...
Discrimination is a socially structured action that is unfair or unjustified and harms individuals and groups.1, 2, 3, 4 Discrimination can be attributed to social interactions that occur to protect more powerful and privileged groups at the detriment of other groups.3, 4 While not all stressful experiences negatively affect health, or occur because of discrimination, many do impact health and can be related to discrimination.5
Major discriminatory events are often the result of structural discrimination that can negatively affect individuals and communities. Residential segregation, disparities in access to quality education, and disparities in incarceration rates are some specific forms of structural discrimination
Residential segregation is a form of structural discrimination in the housing market. Residential segregation is a major cause of differences in health status between African American and white people because it can determine the social and economic resources for not only individuals and families, but also for communities
Another example of structural discrimination is variance in the implementation of criminal justice policy. Some of these variances include the rates at which racial/ethnic minorities are arrested, convicted, and incarcerated for criminal offenses
https://www.healthypeople.gov/2020/topics-objectives/topic/social-determinants-health/interventions-resources/discrimination#:~:text=Another example of structural discrimination,and incarcerated for criminal offenses.



Racism and racial discrimination: Systemic discrimination (fact sheet)
http://www.ohrc.on.ca/en/racism-and-racial-discrimination-systemic-discrimination-fact-sheet


STRUCTURAL DISCRIMINATION -DEFINITIONS, APPROACHES AND TRENDS
https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Issues/Racism/IWG/Session8/MirjanaNajcevska.doc


Structural discrimination and the Human Rights Act 1993
https://www.hrc.co.nz/our-work/race-relations-and-diversity/our-work/fair-go-all/



Structcural Discrimination: Cultural, Institutional and Interactional Mechanisms of the 'European Dilemma'
https://www.researchgate.net/public...ractional_Mechanisms_of_the_'European_Dilemma'

​
Is that enough for now, especially in the light that you've proven that you don't read any presented articles properly.


​
 
Last edited:
Vinty said:
Fillyboy gave you an example of non white immigrants thriving in the UK.
You said.



You said to me.
Unless you have another explanation for why non-white immigrants and their subsequent generations don't manage to climb the socio-economic ladder?

Read more: https://www.diynot.com/diy/threads/...-white-countries.568068/page-10#ixzz6r6hEHS9w
Click to expand...
I've repeatedly said that first generation Black immigrants have not been subjected to structural and overt racism all their lives. They were born into a society that structural racism does not determine their lives. They are not subjected to overt racism from white people all their lives. They have not been discriminated against in education and other societal organisations.
They arrive in UK with their aspirations and ambitions undimmed by racism. They may be better qualified than their counterparts who were born in UK, and have been oppressed and subjected to racism all their lives.

But subsequent generations of Black African immigrants suffer exactly the same as their other Black counterparts.
I asked you for generalised examples of Black immigrants and their subsequent generations, improving their social status. You, and fillyboy, have not provided any.
 
Bobby Dazzler said:
. We don't all get the opportunity to buy the street we happen to land on.
Click to expand...
How many white working class people get the opportunity to buy the street they live in.

You seem to believe that the economic differences between white and black communities are absolute rather than marginal.
You resent the fact that they aren't enough rich and famous black people.
 
Vinty said:
How many white working class people get the opportunity to buy the street they live in.
Click to expand...
Your words, not mine!
I'm suggesting that subsequent generations are born into a structurally racist society that will affect them all their lives.
Edit:
I see you've edited your post:
upload_2021-4-5_9-44-18.png

It was your original comment that I referred to.
Vinty said:
You seem to believe that the economic differences between white and black communities are absolute rather than marginal.
You resent the fact that they aren't enough rich and famous black people.
Click to expand...
You assume too much.
It doesn't help your argument to present your assumptions as my argument.
It's a typical strawman tactic.
You present your version of what you think is my argument, so that you can refute your misrepresentation of my argument.

As I've said repeatedly, your arguments are becoming more absurd and perverse.
You've abused Black MPs, you've jumped from one silly argument and claim to another, you've invented theories to suit your ideology, you've made false allegations about me, and now you're resorting to strawman arguments.
 
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