Ring Circuits and Current Carrying Capacity theory?

[ban-all-sheds]

I am now starting to think you are one of these people who genuinely thinks that their word choice and vocabulary and method of conveying information is the way it is supposed to be done, and you know no better than the method you use.

I do genuinely think that because it is absolutely true.

9 out of 10 people I have dealt with in the past that have acted like this, turned out to be trolls who did it for no other reason than to try to make themselves look clever.

So the problem was with the way you were reading what I wrote.

The issue regarding Ze isn't to do with it not being measurable
It is to do with the fact that I have not measured it, nor has there been any need for me to measure it. I do not require the value in order to pull the wire I will be using in a new circuit.

It's a component of your Zs - it would be a good idea to know what it is before installing new cables in case you install ones which are to small, no?

I am simply renovating a house and ripping out the old wiring as I go along, and creating new circuits which will all be properly connected to a CU and have their own OPD's fitted.

It's probably not as simple as you think to get it right.

As far as my design being "flawed" I simply take a 2.5mm2 cable, and calculate the Maximum CCC for its location. I then "design" the circuit so that the maximum load of the circuit does not exceed the Maximum CCC. 20A at 230V is still 4.6KW. I'm not going to cap a circuit at say 10A if its capable of 20A without issues.

The cable's CCC is the determining factor in designing the circuits maximum permissible load.

You may not agree with that, but that's what is going to happen.

I don't agree with that, because it's completely AAF.

You install a cable with the correct CCC for the load, not define the load to be whatever the CCC turns out to be.

The comment about my radial circuit being a Spur on a spur on a spur and it being pants came from the fact that the existing circuit was exactly that. 50 year old wiring with parts added left right and center over time.

Yes - your radial.

Not radials.

And there's absolutely nothing wrong with adding to a circuit left right and centre over 50 years, provided it was right in the first place, and provided the additions were all done competently. If either of those conditions were not met then the root of the problems would have been the lack of competence, not the circuit topology, and the problems would have been the same had the radial been 50 minutes old.

If you think that ring finals will make things better you are grievously mistaken.

 

[bernardgreen]

It came from people who thought that I had some devious ulterior motives

Doesn't the user name "ban all sheds" come from a desire to see DIY retail outlets closed down. Does that not suggest an ulterior motive to prevent DIYers having access to materials.

You, I know, have not failed to notice that if I think someone is a t**t I'll tell them so.

It has been noticed. But sometimes I feel you consider a person to be a t**t when they are trying to be anything but that by asking for genuine help and advice.

If I think they're ignorant or incompetent and should not be doing whatever it is they want to do I will say so in plain and unambiguous terms.

Sensible to advise them not to do the work but whether they take that advice depends a lot on how they are given the news.

If I think that they have behaved like an idiot I will point that out in a way which cannot be misunderstood.

Sometimes it is not understood because your choice of words creates anger in the reader which prevents clear comprehension of the message you are trying to give.

Yet you still seem to think that I feel the need to deliver coded messages.

Not coded but polite and even sympathetic wording of a critique is far more effective than harsh comments.

Ignorance is best removed by good teaching. Doesn't always work but it does often enough to make sympathetic teaching worthwhile.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Doesn't the user name "ban all sheds" come from a desire to see DIY retail outlets closed down.

Only a certain type.

Does that not suggest an ulterior motive to prevent DIYers having access to materials.

Only if you also imagine that if there were no supermarkets then shoppers would not have access to butchers, bakers, fishmongers, greengrocers....

Yet you still seem to think that I feel the need to deliver coded messages.

Not coded but polite and even sympathetic wording of a critique is far more effective than harsh comments.

I think you've got that AAF. It's nothing to do with what other people think, it's about what other people believe I think.

Read it again - "you still seem to think that I feel the need ... ".

I'm being accused of writing things which attempt to deliver an implied message, one which is not actually present in the words themselves.

What I was trying to point out was that I don't do that - what I was trying to point out was that if I want to tell someone that he's a {whatever} I will use the words "you're a {whatever}", I won't use other words hoping that he, or others, will infer that I'm saying he's a {whatever}.

It seems to me that I get criticised when I deliver forthright opinions, for not presenting them in the right way, and simultaneously criticised when I don't deliver forthright opinions after people decide to invent hidden meanings in what I've written that they don't like.

I sometimes wonder if anybody here has a rational bone in their body.

 

[stillp]

Doesn't the user name "ban all sheds" come from a desire to see DIY retail outlets closed down. Does that not suggest an ulterior motive to prevent DIYers having access to materials.

I think, from reading some of his previous threads, that BAS is labouring under the delusion that electrical wholesalers: a) know something about the products they sell, and b) will advise customers on the correct use of such products, whereas the likes of B & Q, Homebase, etc do not.
If that's the case, then his experience differs from mine.

 

[JohnW2]

I think, from reading some of his previous threads, that BAS is labouring under the delusion that electrical wholesalers: a) know something about the products they sell, and b) will advise customers on the correct use of such products, whereas the likes of B & Q, Homebase, etc do not. If that's the case, then his experience differs from mine.

... and differs from my experiences, too! I would also add that the student son of a friend of mine has had a part-time job working on the 'trade counter' of an electrical wholesalers; he had no significant training (apart from how to work the cash register and complete paperwork), and what he was studying for his (law) degree probably didn't help much either!

Kind Regards, John.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I think, from reading some of his previous threads, that BAS is labouring under the delusion that electrical wholesalers: a) know something about the products they sell, and b) will advise customers on the correct use of such products, whereas the likes of B & Q, Homebase, etc do not.
If that's the case, then his experience differs from mine.

All I can say is this:

1) My experience of the sheds regarding (a) - they don't

2) My experience of the sheds regarding (b) - they don't. Not good, correct advice.

3) My experience of traditional hardware stores from 40 years ago, where men in brown coats sold loose screws and nails by weight etc, is that they did know about what they sold and would give advice.

And I'll add 4) - the sheds employ buyers whose mission is to scour the world for the cheapest and nastiest products, poorest quality materials etc that they can find.

 

[JohnW2]

[3) My experience of traditional hardware stores from 40 years ago, where men in brown coats sold loose screws and nails by weight etc, is that they did know about what they sold and would give advice.

If that's what we're comparing with, then I totally agree with you, but there are very few of those left (although our last local one only died a couple of years ago). I have nothing much positive to say about the 'sheds', but it's wrong to believe that most/all of the alternatives (today) are actually much/any better.

And I'll add 4) - the sheds employ buyers whose mission is to scour the world for the cheapest and nastiest products, poorest quality materials etc that they can find.

That's obviously partially true (and catering to the wishes of their customers). However, some of them (certainly B&Q) sell MK branded products (albeit at an inflated price) - do you believe that they are poor quality counterfeits? Conversely, some of the non-shed suppliers have some very low quality (often called 'contractor range', or something like that) available for sale!

Kind Regards, John.

 

[stillp]

I think, from reading some of his previous threads, that BAS is labouring under the delusion that electrical wholesalers: a) know something about the products they sell, and b) will advise customers on the correct use of such products, whereas the likes of B & Q, Homebase, etc do not.
If that's the case, then his experience differs from mine.

All I can say is this:

1) My experience of the sheds regarding (a) - they don't

2) My experience of the sheds regarding (b) - they don't. Not good, correct advice.

3) My experience of traditional hardware stores from 40 years ago, where men in brown coats sold loose screws and nails by weight etc, is that they did know about what they sold and would give advice.

And I'll add 4) - the sheds employ buyers whose mission is to scour the world for the cheapest and nastiest products, poorest quality materials etc that they can find.

BAS, I agree with 1) and 2). As far as 3) is concerned, that might have been true 40 years ago, but probably isn't true today, except in a few limited cases. Ronnie Barker comes to mind - fork handles anyone? There's a hardware store in my home town still staffed by a gent in a brown coat, who can give lots of advice about the screws and nails he sells by weight, or individually. Whether he can give competent advice about the electrical accessories he sells is doubtful.

In 4) you're being unkind to the sheds. They employ buyers whose mission is to scour the world for the cheapest products that will sell. Not necessarily the cheapest they can find, and they don't actually want poor quality materials etc, just that they wont pay an extra penny per thousand (or whatever) to get better quality.
In addition, they employ accountants who scour every delivery for some excuse to refuse to pay the supplier's invoice. A friend of mine had a factory in South Africa making hardwood doors, and if any problem was raised by a customer the shed would refuse the invoice for the entire consignment, usually an ISO shipping container full. If he wanted to dispute the claim he'd have to pay for the entire container to be shipped back to SA, as well as having to replace the ones in the shed's stock so that sales weren't lost. He went bankrupt, and so did his company's successor. They are now buying from yet another supplier who was tempted by the high volumes and scheduled orders...

So you'll see I have some sympathy for your username.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

If that's what we're comparing with, then I totally agree with you,

That's what I am comparing with.

Just as I am comparing supermarket fish counters with fishmongers of that era and so on.

None of these businesses voluntarily closed down because they thought the sheds were doing a better job and that their customers deserved to go there.

but there are very few of those left (although our last local one only died a couple of years ago).

Try Isaac Lords in High Wycombe. (Disclaimer - not been there for years - it may just be a mini-shed now.)

I have nothing much positive to say about the 'sheds', but it's wrong to believe that most/all of the alternatives (today) are actually much/any better.

That doesn't stop me wanting to see an end to them.

That's obviously partially true (and catering to the wishes of their customers).

Before they started doing it, did their customers petition them to start stocking rubbish?

However, some of them (certainly B&Q) sell MK branded products (albeit at an inflated price)

True. And they sell other branded products too. Not all of what they stock is rubbish (for example they are great places to buy wood if you want to make a propeller), but a great deal is, and they are always on the look out for more.

Conversely, some of the non-shed suppliers have some very low quality (often called 'contractor range', or something like that) available for sale!

Sadly true. They're just proving John Ruskin right.

 

[JohnW2]

That's what I am comparing with. Just as I am comparing supermarket fish counters with fishmongers of that era and so on. None of these businesses voluntarily closed down because they thought the sheds were doing a better job and that their customers deserved to go there.

Sure, but that's all nostalgia. Whether we like it or not, we all know that the clock is never going to be turned back - so, apart from a statement of 'disappointment' (which many of us share), I don't really see the point of the 'ban-all-sheds' philosophy.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[stillp]

However, some of them sell branded products (albeit at an inflated price) - do you believe that they are poor quality counterfeits?

John,

I have direct experience of counterfeit products being 'passed-off' as genuine by the sheds. However when challenged they will (usually) remove said counterfeits for sale. It is much harder to get an independent wholesaler to withdraw products from their shelves. They are more likely to come up with an excuse along the lines of "these are genuine XXX products but from their low-cost range made for the Asian market", or similar.

 

[JohnW2]

I have direct experience of counterfeit products being 'passed-off' as genuine by the sheds. However when challenged they will (usually) remove said counterfeits for sale. It is much harder to get an independent wholesaler to withdraw products from their shelves. They are more likely to come up with an excuse along the lines of "these are genuine XXX products but from their low-cost range made for the Asian market", or similar.

None of that surprises me. I certainly don't think that the 'sheds' will be knowingly selling, say, counterfeit MK products. As for the wholesalers, if their argument you mention is correct, then I suppose one theoretically can't fault them (except for not making that clear) - but I seriously doubt that any of the major reputable manufacturers would produce 'products from their low cost range made for the Asian market' which were indistinguishable (e.g. same product number) from the 'proper' ones produced for Western markets. In some cases, of course (e.g. BS1363 accessories) one might well question which 'Asian markets' actually use them!

Kind Regards, John.

 

[stillp]

I certainly don't think that the 'sheds' will be knowingly selling, say, counterfeit MK products. As for the wholesalers, if their argument you mention is correct, then I suppose one theoretically can't fault them (except for not making that clear) - but I seriously doubt that any of the major reputable manufacturers would produce 'products from their low cost range made for the Asian market' which were indistinguishable (e.g. same product number) from the 'proper' ones produced for Western markets. In some cases, of course (e.g. BS1363 accessories) one might well question which 'Asian markets' actually use them!

Kind Regards, John.

John,

I sometimes think the sheds turn a blind eye to the sources of low-cost products. They won't maintain that attitude in the face of a well-justifed complaint from a major manufacturer though - perhaps, at least in part, because they'll recover the cost of withdrawing a product by not paying their supplier.

Some reputable manufacturers do have low-cost ranges made for certain markets, and sometimes the visible differences from the main range are quite small, which can make that cover story seem plausible. As with all things though, you get what you pay for, and if a bargain seems too good to be true then it probably isn't true.

 

[stillp]

Try Isaac Lords in High Wycombe. (Disclaimer - not been there for years - it may just be a mini-shed now.)

BAS, I concur with that, although I've only used them for woodwork fittings.

 

[JohnW2]

As with all things though, you get what you pay for, and if a bargain seems too good to be true then it probably isn't true.

Exactly - that always was, and always will be, the best guide.

Kind Regards, John.