Ring Continuity Test

The error existed in expecting the resistance of 1.0mm² to be 250% of the resistance of 2.5mm² ...
There's nothing erroneous about that - it's a truth of very basic physics.

If both conductors are of identical material and length, and have CSAs which is constant along their length (and both are at at the same temperature), then it is an inevitable truth that their resistances will be inversely proportional to their CSAs
as opposed to the almost perfect match to the OSG quoted figures, the test was only made due to the contents of this thread.
Anything claiming other than the 'inevitable truth' mentioned above is incorrect.

Kind Regards, John
 
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Did you not work it out to verify? Both can't be right; 7.41 x 2.5 = 18.525. 18.10 / 2.5 = 7.24 so not just a rounding problem.
83 x 18.525 = 1537.575. Spot on.
18.10 clearly not correct. ... That's what I would call slap-dash.
I think he's probably moved the goalposts a fair way - from 'specifications' (which one would hope and expect would be 'internally consistent') to real-world measurements, which are subject to variability (primarily manufacturing and measuring tolerances).

We don't really know where the figures we seen in BS 7671, the OSG or many of the websites actually 'come from'. Has anyone yet found specifications published by manufacturers of cables which indicate anything other than (give or take rounding issues) an exact inverse relationship between CSA and resistance per length of their cables?

Kind Regards, John
 
Provided one knows for certain what the material actually is
Well that's the rub isn't it. Nearly all real-world materials have impurities and the precise level and composition of impurities are going to affect the resistivity. So different cable manufacturers may end up with "copper" that has slightly different resistivity.
 
There's nothing erroneous about that - it's a truth of very basic physics.

If both conductors are of identical material and length, and have CSAs which is constant along their length (and both are at at the same temperature), then it is an inevitable truth that their resistances will be inversely proportional to their CSAs
Although I'm being 'flippant' here, yes of course I know that.

Anything claiming other than the 'inevitable truth' mentioned above is incorrect.

Kind Regards, John
The discrepancies have been discussed here but TBH it's not something I've previously given a thought to as the OSG figures have usually been very close to any measurements, yes discrepancies may exist but usually the lengths involved means they are minimal/easily described as measuring error. The test I did earlier consisted of clipping on and taking a reading of each conductor 5 times and the 5 different readings were averaged, even the red and black were slightly different and came out as 82.996 and 83.0034 metres (just realised I didn't edit that correctly, I originally typed all the test figures and all the calculation/averages) but the figures for the shorter length of 1.5mm² give a different story but I don't know whether it's the 1.5 or 1.0mm² conductor which is the wrong size.
 
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I think he's probably moved the goalposts a fair way - from 'specifications' (which one would hope and expect would be 'internally consistent') to real-world measurements, which are subject to variability (primarily manufacturing and measuring tolerances).
I haven't moved any goal posts, all I've done is measure a couple of bits of cable and give the results.
We don't really know where the figures we seen in BS 7671, the OSG or many of the websites actually 'come from'. Has anyone yet found specifications published by manufacturers of cables which indicate anything other than (give or take rounding issues) an exact inverse relationship between CSA and resistance per length of their cables?

Kind Regards, John
It doesn't really matter where they come from as long as they work in real live situations and until now I've never had a reason to question OSG list.
 
Well that's the rub isn't it. Nearly all real-world materials have impurities and the precise level and composition of impurities are going to affect the resistivity. So different cable manufacturers may end up with "copper" that has slightly different resistivity.
Exactly. That's why I asked if anyone has come across a case where an actual manufacturer is specifying resistances of different sizes of their cables which are not exactly) inversely proportional to the CSA of the conductors in the cables.

Kind Regards, John
 
Could someone please measure an actual metre (or 10) of cable, e.g. 2.5/1.5mm² to see what resistance it actually is?
 
Well, not as far as the measuring is concerned (unless it is too hot to touch) but, of course, it will affect calculations.

Perhaps we could also be informed of the temperature. :)
 
The discrepancies have been discussed here but TBH it's not something I've previously given a thought to as the OSG figures have usually been very close to any measurements,
I doubt that many of us have every bothered to spend time thinking about this, since the (various!) figures available to us are all perfectly adequate (and clearly 'close enough to the truth') for all practical purposes.

The variations in resistivity figures we are seeing almost fade into insignificance in comparison with the effects of temperature, the resistivity being almost exactly 20% (exactly 20% if one uses the OSG's figure for temperature coefficient) higher at 70°C (per BS7671 VDs) than at 20°C (per OSG resistance figures).

Kind Regards, John
 
I came across this:


1692707107848.png
 
I haven't moved any goal posts, all I've done is measure a couple of bits of cable and give the results.
Yes - but, as I said, you're addressing a somewhat different question/issue than the one I've been discussing, because you are talking about actual measurements of actual cables - which introduces the issues of manufacturing tolerances and measurement tolerance/error.
It doesn't really matter where they come from as long as they work in real live situations and until now I've never had a reason to question OSG list.
I think we are agreed that all the figures we've seen are perfectly adequate for practical purposes.

However, if (I suppose for 'intellectual reasons') we want to try to understand the reason for the variations and inconsistencies we're seeing, then 'where the various figures 'come from' is very important.

Small variations between sources for properties such as resistivity, temperature coefficient are not surprising. However, what IS surprising, and shouldn't really happen, is when figures for resistance of conductors of different CSAS from the same source (all of which should be based on the same resistivity) are not 'internally consistent'.

Kind Regards, John
 
I came across this: ...
Thanks.

I wonder if we're not being unrealistic (naïve?) is expecting all sources to quote identical figures?

In terms of virtually any 'properties of materials' (resistivity, temp coefficients of resistance/expansion,, density, , thermal conductivity etc.. etc.), one will almost always find small variations between 'sources' - and it's rare that there is one figure which one can regard as the "Gold Standard" (maybe a source such as the Ntional Physical Laboratory would be the closet to that?)/

It is also apparent that some (probably very small) variations are going to exist in relation to different versions of "copper" (e.g. annealed vs .not annealed).

However, as I've just written, we're talking about something a little different from that - namely the fact that several sources are quoting resistances (per length) of conductors of different CSAs which are not inversely proportional to the CSAs - despite the fact that they all should be based on the same resistivity.

Kind Regards, John
 
Could someone please measure an actual metre (or 10) of cable, e.g. 2.5/1.5mm² to see what resistance it actually is?
Hopefully I'm out tomorrow cable pulling (6mm² ring main) I'l try to measure a whole drum before we start, for that we will have to assume the 100m length is correct.
 

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