Rossi E-Cat cold fusion to solve world energy problems

[Space cat]

-- perhaps he's waiting for the highest bidder from the world's power companies.

Bingo! Now that makes the most sense of all! When the first cold fusion experiment hit the headlines, some major energy players took notice. I know that because one of them ordered 32 grand's worth of stuff from a small electronics company I once worked for - then cancelled the order the moment the boffins at Harwell debunked the whole idea.

Why haven't the top physicists who have witnessed it published their findings?

Possibly because any physicist, anywhere, would ask the same question: where's the helium?

Rossi does himself no favours. He had a 1MW e-cat up for sale for nearly 2 years for $1million but wouldn't actually sell one to anybody - so that was a publicity stunt. For two or three years he's been saying a small domestic version would be available for independent testing within months - but that never materialised. Another publicity stunt. And the latest is he is saying that comprehensive design details will be released in the next couple of months. I wouldn't bother watching out for it because it won't happen. Another publicity stunt.

That fits. I doubt very much whether the likes of BP will want to get their fingers burnt twice but, if he can generate enough publicity, some smaller enterprise might just bite. All it takes is greed and ignorance, both of which are in plentiful supply. Remember the 'bomb detector' that couldn't even find a golf ball?

Which reminds me. Does anybody want to buy a mermaid egg?

 

[EddieM]

physicist, anywhere, would ask the same question: where's the helium?

And again, you have missed the point by a light year!! I am not saying you're wrong, and in truth would imagine you are almost certainly right, what I do find very disconcerting is you're rigid adherence to "accepted" models, this flies in the face of the inquisitive nature of science, slavish acceptance, makes you a non scientist!! Sure debunk it, that's fine, don't just say, there's no helium, that's just a crap answer.

 

[jeds]

Several top brains have published findings. The problem is though they can't explain it other than they all rule out chemical reaction. Just as a matter of interest Space cat, do you have a theory as to where the heat is coming from? From Rossi's contraption I mean.

 

[Space cat]

-- do you have a theory as to where the heat is coming from?

It took a lot of digging but I finally came up with some numbers. These are from at least two independent (?) sources so I hope they're right. If any chemists out there want to shoot me down in flames, please feel free to do so.

Binding energy of molecular hydrogen (H2) = 436 kJ/mol.
Binding energy of nickel hydride = approx 170 kJ/mol.

(Metal hydrides are not precise compounds so their binding energies are hard to pin down.)

Each mole of H2 yields two moles of H and so the formation of nickel hydride should release about 340 kJ per mole of H2 - which is less than the 436 kJ needed to split the H2 molecule.

I can only surmise that hydride formation depends upon statistical effects. There's lots of H2 and not much NiH and so some H2 molecules will find enough energy to split and form hydrides. (This behaviour is normal in solid state physics, It's required for semiconductors to work.) From what I've read, the dissociation takes place mostly on the metal surface and then the atoms make their way in. Some metals are better at splitting H2 than others. Palladium is particularly good at it.

The important point to note is that the cold fusion experiments have all involved monatomic hydrogen (or, as our chemistry teacher called it, nascent hydrogen). These bare hydrogen atoms do not have to be split out of a molecule before they can do their stuff and are therefore extremely reactive. Instead of only a fraction of the available H2 molecules finding enough energy (from somewhere) to split and form hydrides, ALL of those bare atoms can rush straight into the metal where they can be expected to react vigorously.

-- what I do find very disconcerting is you're rigid adherence to "accepted" models, this flies in the face of the inquisitive nature of science, slavish acceptance, makes you a non scientist!!

I actually find it sad that more scientists have not shown any real interest in what's going on. There's obviously a real and observable effect. Maybe the 'cold fusion' label is putting them off. That and the fact that Rossi is almost certainly keeping a lot of data to himself. Once again it would appear that greed and stupidity are getting in the way of good science.

Unfortunately many people will not accept it because it doesn’t fit the current understanding

Unfortunately, the 'I don't believe it' mentality does exist. I can just about remember what happened to Eric Laithwaite when he tried to demonstrate his 'levitating gyroscope':

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Laithwaite

He was more or less dismissed as a fruitcake. He was wrong of course but that's not the point. Not one of those who would call themselves scientists bothered to ask the obvious question: "What's really going on?" It was only much later that careful measurements on a giant set of floor scales revealed the answer. He was exerting considerably more force at ground level than he realized. The gyro stored this extra energy then released it as it rose above his head. Momentum was conserved and Newton continued to rest in (relative) peace.

 

[wobs]

Pure woo.
No write up in any journal, no working model on sale after years of promises, and no peer review.

Let's look at some evidence....

Recently Australian entrepreneur Dick Smith offerred Andrea Rossi $1,000,000 if he could prove that Rossi’s Energy Catalyzer (E-Cat) cold fusion (or Low Energy Nuclear Reaction) system actually works as claimed. Rossi immediately turned down the challenge.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibbs/2012/02/24/dick-smith-rossi-e-cat-too-fantastic-to-be-true/

Peter Ekström, lecturer at the Department of Nuclear Physics at Lund University in Sweden, concluded in May 2011, "I am convinced that the whole story is one big scam, and that it will be revealed in less than one year."[

Typically during demonstrations the device was covered up.[33] The device was not independently verified. Invited guests attended several demonstrations in Bologna in 2011.[34][35][36] Of a January demonstration, Discovery Channel analyst Benjamin Radford wrote that "If this all sounds fishy to you, it should," and that "In many ways cold fusion is similar to perpetual motion machines. The principles defy the laws of physics, but that doesn't stop people from periodically claiming to have invented or discovered one."[37] According to PhysOrg (11 August 2011), the demonstrations held from January to April 2011 had several flaws that compromised their credibility and Rossi had refused to perform tests that could verify his claims.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Catalyzer

Or here:
http://www.skeptics.com.au/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/Rossi-ECAT-press-release-Technical1.pdf

Bryce noted that in Rossi’s experiments, if the earth wire was accidentally connected to the active pin of the power plug instead of the earth pin, and also to some of the power circuits inside the blue control box, then it could introduce extra power bypassing the metering instruments. One of the Swedish nuclear physicists who witnessed a test on 29 March agrees that it could be so. (Other misconnections would achieve the same result.) (For two connection diagrams see here and here.)
Bryce firstly examined all six published tests of Rossi’s E-CAT from December 2010 to July 2011, which includes models known as the 10 KW, the 3 KW, and the 3 KW truncated. Such a misconnection could funnel in up to 3000 watts, rather than the 300 – 800 watts shown on the meters. Since the output power estimated in these 6 experiments ranges from 2300 to 2900 watts (after careful corrections and some estimation), all the excess power previously attributed to cold fusion is accounted for.
In all the tests after July of E-CATs known as the 27KW and the Megawatt models, there was no valid output power measurement due to poorly placed thermometers, and hence no proven extra power. Thus, Bryce believes all results of E-CAT tests are accounted for without involving LENR.
Bryce said photos show a current meter on the brown wire, while the unmeasured green wire lies beside it in plain view. (See photo)

Even one of the scientists who reportedly supports Rossi is skeptical:

There have been many attempts to twist the release of this video into NASA’s support for LENR or as proof that Rossi’s e-cat really works. Many extraordinary claims have been made in 2010. In my scientific opinion, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I find a distinct absence of the latter. So let me be very clear here. While I personally find sufficient demonstration that LENR effects warrant further investigation, I remain skeptical. Furthermore, I am unaware of any clear and convincing demonstrations of any viable commercial device producing useful amounts of net energy.

So what does extraordinary evidence look like? As a trained scientist, I have been taught the historical standards for acceptance of experimental results or theories. Experiments and theories go hand-in-hand in what is known as the scientific method. Both must be independently tested, replicated, or verified. As a minimum, experimental results must be replicated by an objective and independent party. The nature of the test or replication needs to adhere to the spirit of the original experiment but, should be under the full design, implementation, and control of the independent tester. So, if a device is claimed to be capable of producing excess heat by nature of its operation (i.e., the consumption of fuel via a nuclear process), it must be operated properly. The way power input and power output are measured should be left up to the independent tester. This is standard scientific practice. What would take this to the next level (extraordinary evidence) would be to have the test be an open public test. The nature of the test and specific approach to executing the test should be made public. The conduct of the test should be open to additional 3rd party experts. And finally, the data should be publicly released. Further peer review of all aspects of the independent test is a must. Community consensus is the ultimate goal. Every attempted demonstration of a LENR device that I am aware of has failed to meet one or more of these criteria.

http://joe.zawodny.com/
He's generous in his open mindedness, as Rossi has had plenty of time to do these things


Its a scam to get investors to give him money on the promise of something that never turns up. Its not an original scam, as others have tried with fuel additives, and perpetual motion machines.

 

[wobs]

An excellent article here:
http://www.skeptics.com.au/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/Cold-Fusion-Ekstrom-on-ECAT-English.pdf

 

[EddieM]

Unfortunately, the 'I don't believe it' mentality does exist. I can just about remember what happened to Eric Laithwaite when he tried to demonstrate his 'levitating gyroscope':

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Laithwaite

He was more or less dismissed as a fruitcake. He was wrong of course but that's not the point. Not one of those who would call themselves scientists bothered to ask the obvious question: "What's really going on?"

Ahh, precisely, it is too easy to dismiss, saying that can't be the case, but that isn't science, yeah sure I agree, almost all of these things are put forward by either poor science, or deluded fruitcakes, but science cannot dismiss, things like this out of hand, without a rigourous debuttal, or it just becomes the same as blind religion.

 

[Brigadier]

Rossi must be on to something - EDF have just reduced my direct debit.

They're running scared, ah tells thee.......

 

[Mikefromlondon]

some things can't be explained yet, due to lack of our understanding in what goes on, when the cold fusion first started to emerge, scientist all over the world got excited obviously many confirming the findings were true, here is a vidoe of two of the earlier founders of cold fusion (Dr Martin Fleischmann and Stanley Pons ) and how they were totally convinced that a nuclear reaction was going on but without the side effects of it such as the deadly rays.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivVeOx_wbWk

also an intersting but old BBC Horizon documentary https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kb_T8sCWL8

 

[WarmSoks]

new verification

Cold fusion reactor verified by third-party researchers,
seems to have 1 million times the energy density of gasoline

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...-million-times-the-energy-density-of-gasoline

http://www.infinite-energy.com/iemagazine/issue118/analysis.html

 

[JohnD]

Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:50 am

So by now, we should have seen his experiments replicated in physics labs in universities all over the world, results published in reputable media, and no doubt patents taken out, and contracts signed with energy companies worldwide.


in fact, however....



Can I interest you in some magic beans, warmsoks?

 

[EddieM]

Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:50 am

So by now, we should have seen his experiments replicated in physics labs in universities all over the world, results published in reputable media, and no doubt patents taken out, and contracts signed with energy companies worldwide.


in fact, however....



Can I interest you in some magic beans, warmsoks?

This is indeed interesting.... let's try to dismiss conspiracy theories as to the energy giants squashing it, but on the other hand I'd like to keep an open mind and see the claims put under rigorous scrutiny, after all, my guess is we'd all like to see this as workable, the fact it flies in the face of just about all know physics is neither here nor there. If I were a betting chap I'd say it was a load of cobblers, but I am more than happy to be proved wrong on that.

 

[wobs]

Would you believe a serial scammer that has still to have anything verfied by external experts?

 

[Doug99]

This discovery may not of our time or dimension.

Is that the Doctor's Tardis in the background?

http://www.e-catworld.com/what-is-the-e-cat/

 

[WarmSoks]

2015 could be year of LENR breakout and legitimacy. Cold Fusion vindication possible
Prof Parkhomov claims to have replicated Rossi E-Cat and Parkhomov and published fully open research. Others are racing to replicate and extend the work.

Prof Alexander Parkhomov of Lomonosov Moscow State University has published a paper describing his successful replication of the E-Cat, based on the available information about it.
The paper is in Russian; there is a link and commentary and video in English on E-Cat World. Parkhomov's results are more modest, but the energy output of his cloned E-Cat claimed to be up to 2.74 times as great as the input.

http://nextbigfuture.com/2015/01/2015-could-be-year-of-lenr-breakout-and.html

..