Stuck between a rock and a hard place

[jason1958]

More to it than that.
Doing "Cable Replacement" hence my quotes is to differentiate from a complete new design with regards to number of sockets, position etc.

- The supply type must be identified.
- Main Equipotential Bonding must be correct re sizing to gas & water.
- Cable routes need to comply with BS7671 17th - pre 1987 routes will most probably not.
- Cable length must be within EFLI limits for 4mm radial & Vdrop limits for lighting (3% for 17th)
- Cable routing around lights should really be loop-in for both upstairs & downstairs, it may well be jn-box for downstairs which is not ideal (unless in an accessible hatch on a landing which remains an accessible hatch if laminate fitted)
- Cable sizing must meet corrected CCC, eg, cooker & shower cables sized for load, plus Vdrop, EFLI, plus grouping factors re Ambient, Insulation, Temperature & Grouping
- Cable routing from the CU throughout needs to consider grouping factors re Ambient, Insulation, Temperature & Grouping
- CU needs to be to 17th re dual RCD at the minimum
- Garage cabling needs checking for sizing, earthing, routing, RCD supply protection if any part of the sub-main does not comply with 526-06-06

Direct cable replacement is most likely not going to comply with BS7671 wiring zones, grouping & so on. Yes Part P does permit cable replacement for a single circuit - it imposes that limitation because of this cable routing problem re zones only introduced in 1987.


As I stated, you may hire/buy tools, books, GN3, but 60% of the work is not running cables it is Inspection & Testing - as I stated that requires C&G 2391+. There is much more to it than meets the eye.

Competent DIY is typically small scale.
- Replace a single cable to move a socket not in a special location etc
- Replace socket fronts
- Extend a ring f.c. or radial f.c. to provide an extra sockets or lights not in a special location etc

To do a rewire really requires a strong physics/elec engineering background.
- Typically ownership of the required test gear AND professional experience in its use
- Typically qualified to C&G level or elec eng degree & relevant work experience
- Sufficient knowledge of BS7671 regs, ability to understand not just what they say but the reasoning behind it AND physical skills AND knowledge of best practice AND appropriate tooling to use correct materials & practices

Very few DIYers can do a pro job rewiring.


Thus I suggest a minimal rewire & CU by a spark at the least re cost.
Better to have a minimal install that is safe, then attempt to build the ark without a clue only for it to sink. Remedials could then be much more expensive.

 

[chojin360]

thanks again for your input

its making more and more sense as people post answers ! - i hope this thread will help more people in the position that im in

it is certainly a complex task - its just a shame that its in such a bad state at the moment - and a full rewire/CU is needed

BUT i suppose once its done , it should be easy to maintain and should last a good few years

im just wondering how much mess will be made of the walls etc.. as the price doesnt include making good

Stu

 

[BrettMRC]

Been reading through as I might find myself in the same boat in a few months.

Some very interesting replies, most of which are very valid.

However I'm a little dissappointed at the tone of replies Mr. 360 has received. We all have our own skills and expertise, we all know a trade or two. Whats wrong with asking for advice?

Really shocked to see this kind of soap box ranting.

What happended to the days of people being happy to impart adive without judgement? Would you berate a trainee or an apprentice for not having the required skills? No.

Good luck with which ever course of action you choose Chojin360, my advice is this:

Get a few more quotes; See if someone will take your donkey work into consideration.

What ever you do, make sure its safe and legal.


And finally, the first peice of wisdom I was taught as an apprentice: (many moons ago)

IF IN DOUBT ASK

 

[Cremeegg]

Just "cable replacement" it isn't - as others have expanded.

Most on here are happy to give good advice for free but when people think it's all so easy thats when any trade profession gets annoyed. Plenty of people can't "sit and shuffle paper" all day - it requires knowledge.

Yes - an experienced sparks will have a good idea of what is expected and the test results they are likely to see for any given circuit; just as a structural engineer will have a good idea what size RSJ is needed. Both should do the calcs to prove their experience is correct.

 

[RF Lighting]

I wish i could earn 1k for a weeks work ( yes i know its top line ) - its just something else i dont like - paying a month of my wage for a week of someone elses work

Just one question for you. Out of your months wages dou you have to pay for:

Industry scheme membership (NICEIC etc)
Domestic installer scheme membership
Public liability insurance
Professional indemnity insurance
3 day regs update course
Inspetion and testing course
Purchase of a van
Diesel for the van to get to your house
Tax for the van
Insurance for the van
Complete set of hand tools, which need to be replaced on a regular basis
Complete set of power tools
Complete set of test equipment which requires calibration every year.
Dust sheets
Work clothes and overalls
Personal protective equipment
An accountant to check the books and do the tax

Also, don't forget about:

The time it takes to go out to peoples houses to quote for work which you might not even get
The time it takes to sit at home and type out quotes
The time it takes to sit at home and type out invoices
The time it takes to sit at home and type out certificates
The time it takes to sit at home and send a copy of the certificate to the LABC to ensure your customers installation complies with all current legislation
The time it takes to sit at home and compile all the paperwork for the NIC assesor to inspect
The time it takes to sit at home and do you bookwork ready for your accountant....

Did I miss anything?

 

[Taylortwocities]

Plus three years at night school
Plus a 2391 course
Plus a 2381 course
Plus courses to upgrade because there's new regulations
Plus a day a year UNPAID so that you can be re-assessed (even doctors dont get assessed on an annual basis)

Oh yes, If i take holiday it costs me a days pay for each day I dont work
If I'm sick I dont get paid
I dont get an index-linked pension

Oh and also - i dont sit at my PC during the working day, and at my employers expense, doing my own personal stuff (hey that's my money if your working for the NHS!!!).


£200 a day looks very reasonable to me.........

 

[pompeygit]

If I could give any advice to DIYERS who move into a house that needs updating: Before you chop down trees, before you put in new windows, before you put in new heating, before you do a lick of paint, before you skim a wall, before you tile, before you fit a new kitchen or bathroom, before you buy a new carpet, plan what needs to be done and PUT THE KIN NEW ELECTRICS IN FIRST to suit your planned layout. Then all can be finished beautifully over a period of time

 

[pompeygit]

And another thing if you can get a full re-wire with certs for 2.2k bite his kin arm off.........

 

[RF Lighting]

I think someone already said that

 

[Maybach]

How can some one with little or no experience of a trade look at a quote and come to the conclusion it's too much money? do you know exactly what's involved? I can assure you that to operate as a professional electrician it costs several thousands of pounds a year. I'm sure if someone were see you at work and then commented that you earned too much for sitting in a comfy chair behind a PC you'd be slightly hacked off. You know your skills and knowledge of your job is worthwhile as is the skills and knowledge of a professional electrician. With regard to your original question, it sounds like your wiring has seen better days and it needs a complete rewire before your house burns down. 2.2k sounds more than a fair price for a 4 bedroom house. I fully appreciate the fact you're reluctant to pay professional skilled labour costs to lump furniture around and knock boxes into your walls. If you can clear as much as you can prior to the job starting it may help. I must admit I'm releuctant to get involved when a customer offers to do half the job for you, simply because it could be more hassle than it is worth, if wall chases, boxes and holes have been put in the wrong place etc it could turn into a real disaster and end up taking the electrician twice as long, possibly at his own expense. You go to your PC and get paid for what you're good at, and pay a professional to do what he.. or even she is good at. Good luck

 

[securespark]

we have spend over 10K already

Should have kept a bit of this back to pay for your rewire....

 

[ban-all-sheds]

so for arguments sake we have

1 - dining room - 1S socket , 1 light
2 - living room - 2D & 1S socket , 1 light
3 - bathroom - 0 Sockets , 1 Light , 1 shower
4 - comp room - 1D & 1S Socket , 1 light
5 - kitchen - errrrrr - 4D & 1S Socket , 1 Light , 1 Elec Cooker
6 - Bedroom 1 - 1S Socket , 1 Light
7 - Bedroom 2 - 1S Socket , 1 Light
8 - Bedroom 3 - 1S Socket , 1 Light
9 - Garage - Armoured Cable to it - Its own CU
10 - Hall Stairs Landing - 0 Sockets , 2 Lights

Good idea to put all wiring in conduit for ease of future changes.

Think hard about where to have sockets - it's difficult to have too many, and also about what circuits to have. The items on the list below won't all apply to you, but they are worth thinking about:

• Upstairs sockets
• Downstairs sockets
• Kitchen sockets
• Radial for appliances
• Cooker circuit
• Dedicated circuit for F/F
• Dedicated circuit for CH boiler
• Dedicated circuit for hifi
• Dedicated circuit for IT equipment
• Upstairs lights
• Downstairs lights + think if you'd like lighting sockets controlled by light switches
• Immersion heater
• Loft lights
• Shower
• Bathroom circuit
• Alarm
• Supply for outside lights
• Supply for garden electrics
• Supply for shed/garage

Plus any peculiarities brought about by your house layout & construction - e.g. in mine because of solid floors and where the rings run, I have a radial just for a socket in the hall, the doorbell and the porch lights.

Plus a few spares in each CU section for expansion beyond that for future unforeseen needs.

Consider also specifying a CU with several sections, to increase the granularity of RCD protection, or the extensive use of RCBOs on a per-circuit basis.

If you live somewhere where supplies are dodgy in the winter, have the lights, the boiler supply, and a socket in each room wired to a separate CU, or a separate section in a large one, that can be supplied by an emergency generator - lights, heating, TV and a kettle/microwave make life a lot more bearable.

 

[chojin360]

Hello again !

lucky enough we havent started to decorate ( but thats another story ! ) - so we seem to be doing this at the correct time

the more i look at what needs doing and the more replies there are to this thread - the better the price looks

we are currently looking into ways of funding the work and it does look like we will just pay for it doing - that way we know its safe and it should last a good few years

just to comment - in my months wage i have to pay for a car to get to work , fuel to put in it , class 1 business miles , my own clothes to wear at work , insurance etc...

and i was more offering my help to fetch and carry stuff - or help pull cables thru the floor space - even if it means me getting under the floor to reach a cable - thats what i was offering - being a general helper - not trying to spoil the work he is trying to do ( or get in the way )

and just generally trying to help him with the heavy work - i would leave him well alone when is he messing with the ends of the cables and the CU

im going to speak to the guy again and confirm what he is planning - i know he is quoting for radial circuits - but im still not sure thats the way forward

i am going to compile some questiosn from all these posts and see what he comes back with ( ban-all-sheds : thanks for the list - you make some good points ! )

i will be back with more updates ( or silly questions ! )

Stu

 

[chojin360]

i have just sent a list of questions to the sparky :


1 – will you be using a separate lighting feed for upstairs and downstairs


2 – will you use a separate feed for upstairs and downstairs sockets


3 – will the kitchen be on a separate fuse


4 – will the shower be on its on fuse ( the shower is being replaced but it could be 2 yrs off – and if its on its own fuse – it makes life a lot simpler )


5 – will the cooker be on its own fuse


6 – are you supplying all new front to sockets / switches / light pendants


7 – there is power in the loft ( and a light ) – will that be spurred of something else – or a separate fuse


8 – how many fuses will be supplied in the CU ( for adding more stuff at a later date such as an alarm system , outside lighting , outside power sockets , dorma extension )


9 – will the garage be on its own fuse


10 – does the size of the CU alter the total price – ideally I would like a large one (see No.


11 – will ALL of the sockets run off a single run – or will some of them be spurs


12 – is it worthwhile having a separate feed for the computer room simply due to the importance of the equipment


13 – would you be able to fit some cat5 sockets if I provide all of the stuff and I do the wiring (you would just need to cut the holes in the wall and make sure the cable run is safe )


14 – is there enough room under the stairs for the new CU or would I need to “make room”


not sure if i have missed anything or they are a bit silly ???

Stu

 

[chojin360]

me again !!

i just keep thinking of things

is it worth while asking for an isolator switch to be fitted whilst the work is being done - so that if any work needs doing in the future then the power to the CU can be completly shut off ??

Stu