The death penalty.

[megawatt]

Well you explain why the non death penalty states have a HUGELY lower murder rate than those that do (he won't)

Joe, it's about time that you realised that stats alone don't tell the story and they can be manipulated to suit ... Any statistician will admit this.

What the stats in the US (for example) don't tell us is the demographic of the states with and without the death penalty i.e. the context to the information.

Without this context statistics are absolutely useless.

I'll give you an example. Each year when the DOH cardiac stats are produced my local hospital gets castigated by the press because the figures always show a high rate of atrial fibrillation post cardiac surgery in comparison to peer hospitals. When you get behind the figures, however, it transpires that the hospital simply has a better coding department who routinely code such common symptoms whereas other hospitals don't.

With any set of figures we need the rationale behind their production i.e. the context because, without this, they are simply meaningless numbers.

To conclude that murder rates would drop if the death penalty were removed from states which currently have it simply because the figures show a lower incidence of murder in states without the death penalty is an invalid assertion.

MW

 

[joe-90]

The states that don't have the death penalty have a massively lower rate of murder. Murder isn't a stat that can be manipulated. It means one human killing another, and when that happens it is recorded. The recorded murders in the non-death penalty states are over 40% lower than in the death penalty states. Nothing to do with stats - it's the number of humans deliberately killed by their fellow humans. If you can find some information that proves that this information is wrong - then let's see it. If you cannot provide it- then we can safely assume that it is true, and more humans deliberately kill humans in states where there is the death penalty.
Now stop waffling and give me facts.

 

[Shytalkz]

It's not just about murder is it? It's also about kiddy-fiddling, rape, drug dealing...

 

[joe-90]

It's not just about murder is it? It's also about kiddy-fiddling, rape, drug dealing...

No it's not.

 

[Shytalkz]

Yes it it is, no one said here just bump em off for killing someone else. I still don't believe your "stats" anyhow.

 

[joe-90]

Lets see your stats then.

 

[Rob]

The states that don't have the death penalty have a massively lower rate of murder.

Doesn't mean alot, unless of course you can provide evidence that shows murders went up since introducing the death penalty or went down when they removed it.

Im sure if just london started using the death peanalty murderes would fall. Would still be higher than all those not using it, though

 

[joe-90]

The states that don't have the death penalty have a massively lower rate of murder.

Doesn't mean alot,

Of course it does, It means that in states where the death penalty is banned - murder rates are lower.

That's what it means. Why can't you accept it? Probably because you don't want to accept it.

If the statistics showed there was a massive percentage lower (of murder) in death penalty states - would you be arguing against those stats then?

Of course not. You want to see a good hanging, that's what you want.

 

[Softus]

...more humans deliberately kill humans in states where there is the death penalty.
Now stop waffling and give me facts.

I think the boot is on the other foot.

Both megawatt and I, to name but two, have pointed out to you that these statistics don't tell the whole story.

There are [at least] three possibilities:

1. The lower incidence of murders is a direct result of the lack of the death penalty.
2. The lower incidence of murders has nothing to do with the death penalty.
3. The people in the states that have no death penalty are all so much nicer than those in other states that they feel no need to kill each other.

Your view of the balance of probabilities may be such that you think the death penalty causes more murders, and I might even agree with you, but it isn't fact. And since you place so much importance on facts, your argument isn't logical.

And since it's so easy to pick holes in your argument, it throws doubt on your ability to think clearly about it.

And your unclear thinking, and faintly pathetic non-sequiturs, are inherently supportive to those who want the death penalty.

And if you don't believe that (he won't), then ask (he won't) one of those people whether or not they respect your argument (they don't).

 

[joe-90]

OK then. So in non-death penalty states the murder rate is as low as 44% that of the death penalty states. If you can't tell me why that is then lets use a bit of common sense eh? Let's say the 'balance of probability' is that there is a connection.

Oh and and the pro death penalty posters aren't interested in lowering the murder rate, all they want is revenge by the state. No amount of common sense will ever make them change their minds.

 

[Softus]

OK, I stand corrected - you have indeed seen sense.

I agree with you - I believe there to be a connection, although it's one that I don't understand. Yet.

I'd go further than just agreeing, I would say that the onus is on non-believers to produce a more plausible theory for the statistics (they won't, they can't).
___________________

Edit: I also agree with your second statement - pro-deathers just want killers put to death, without being able to reason it out. This is why it's a circular argument.

 

[Shytalkz]

We give out "life" sentences here that, in the vast majority of cases don't mean that at all: at some point they are let out on licence and there have been many instances of those released going out to do the self-same crime again. Bumping them off from a moralistic pov may not be perfect (although I really don't have any problem squaring the circle in that respect), but the arrangements we have at present are from being being so as well. Far too many victims (and in the case of murder, I am meaning the family of those killed, obviously) do not feel that justice has been done. Tales of cushty life are not helping them to deal with their grief and get on with their lives, is it now? your personal pov may well change when something like this happens closer to home than the vast majority of us have experienced, I bet.

It seems strange to me that we have MPs who express moralistic repugnance to the reintroduction of the death penalty, yet these same people happily send off troops to fight in wars, to kill and be killed, in the name of...well, I'm not quite sure as to what the ferk we are doing in Iraqistan these days.

If we as a nation were being invaded, would you kill a member of an invading force to preserve this septic isle? Or would you just stand idly by, hande hoch and accept a new ruling yoke?

 

[joe-90]

I don't know who you are talking to but if it's me, then I assure you I am no pacifist. Neither do I believe that child murderers/rape-murderers should ever be released. They should be made to work hard for the rest of their lives. No work - no dinner or heating.
Having said that, I don't believe (to combine the other thread for a moment) that that driver will ever be given a sentence that would appease society that 'justice has been seen to be done' either.

 

[Shytalkz]

Not you specifically.

Work hard doing what though, Joe? Making mailbags? Painting stones white with a toothbrush? Cutting the grass with a pair of nail scissors? Painting the grass green, tarmac black? (All but the mailbags things that I had to do in the AF, for minor misdemeanours btw!). Why give them any comforts? Make them forage for scraps of food, eke out a daily existence (kinda like a labour govt for the prison populace); they opted out of normal societal bounds by killing/raping/kiddy-fiddling/drug-pedalling, so, at the very least, let them see out their days outside the normal provisions of a supposed civilised society.

Would you, as an anti-death penalty person, be prepared to kill in the defence of this nation?

 

[doitall]

I don't know who you are talking to but if it's me, then I assure you I am no pacifist. Neither do I believe that child murderers/rape-murderers should ever be released. They should be made to work hard for the rest of their lives. No work - no dinner or heating.
Having said that, I don't believe (to combine the other thread for a moment) that that driver will ever be given a sentence that would appease society that 'justice has been seen to be done' either.

Bleedin hearts, do gooders, human rights, front page of every newpaper.

You really have know idea what life insides like have you.