The Saville Report

[ellal]

Ellal, which side smells of sh*t, I grew in NI in the 70's/80's had my town (Coleraine) bomb to bits twice, first time I watched it blow up out my school window when I was 11 (quiet scary), my best friends uncle was a fireman at the time and said he couldn't pick up the body parts but had to use a shovel to place them in bags, had friend blown up in Ballykelly bombing, friend shot in head while sitting in his car on a Sunday evening...I could go on .... I'm sure there are people suffering on both sides and no one has monoply on pain or hurt.. the blame game could go on for ever.....

If you notice, this is about a particular incident, not the N.I. situation in general...

People adding in the whole 30 years are just muddying the waters because they don't like the result!

 

[ajstoneservices]

Ellal, which side smells of sh*t, I grew in NI in the 70's/80's had my town (Coleraine) bomb to bits twice, first time I watched it blow up out my school window when I was 11 (quiet scary), my best friends uncle was a fireman at the time and said he couldn't pick up the body parts but had to use a shovel to place them in bags, had friend blown up in Ballykelly bombing, friend shot in head while sitting in his car on a Sunday evening...I could go on .... I'm sure there are people suffering on both sides and no one has monoply on pain or hurt.. the blame game could go on for ever.....

If you notice, this is about a particular incident, not the N.I. situation in general...

People adding in the whole 30 years are just muddying the waters because they don't like the result!

Seems to be about a number of incidences perhaps your blinkers are effecting your view

 

[ellal]

Seems to be about a number of incidences perhaps your blinkers are effecting your view

Ah, so that's why the saville report was called "bloody sunday, and all that other sh*t"

Blinkers?...Another one that doesn't bother reading the topic...

If you had bothered to ask about support for similar inquiries into IRA actions instead of going off on a rant in a vain attempt to justify your inaccurate assumption you might have had a point...

Both sides shoulder the blame for civilian deaths, but in this instance the british army killed indiscriminately in just the same way as republican bombs... In fact, it could be considered more callous, as they knew their victims faces!

 

[ajstoneservices]

Ellal, which side smells of sh*t, I grew in NI in the 70's/80's had my town (Coleraine) bomb to bits twice, first time I watched it blow up out my school window when I was 11 (quiet scary), my best friends uncle was a fireman at the time and said he couldn't pick up the body parts but had to use a shovel to place them in bags, had friend blown up in Ballykelly bombing, friend shot in head while sitting in his car on a Sunday evening...I could go on .... I'm sure there are people suffering on both sides and no one has monoply on pain or hurt.. the blame game could go on for ever.....

If you notice, this is about a particular incident, not the N.I. situation in general...

People adding in the whole 30 years are just muddying the waters because they don't like the result!

I was referring to this post not Saville

 

[lifesagasman]

Yeah right. Show me one "warlike situation" where there have not been any civilian casualties.

Unlike you (it seems), I find civilian casualties totally unacceptable whatever 'side' they are on...

lifesagasman wrote

Since very few, if any, of these 'paramilitaries' presented themselves in a recognisable uniform to make themselves identifiable to their 'opponents' (British Army and RUC, both in uniform) it would be fairly accurate to describe them as terrorists, or armed civilians. Of course, this provides perfect cover for their activities and allows them to be quickly lost in a crowd. It is a well known ploy, but those actions obviously endanger those civilians in the vicinity. That is of little concern to the terrorist as civilian losses incurred during consequent military counter-action can readily be blamed on the Army for not being cautious enough.
It would be interesting to know, ellal, exactly how you would react in a similar situation. Have you ever been on the receiving end of sniper fire?
Or had petrol/nail bombs thrown your way?
Imagine policing a large crowd on a hot day with confused/incomplete information passing around, a hostile crowd, uncertainty, adrenaline, fear of the unexpected, etc etc. I trust your comments and opinions are tempered with experience of this kind of situation?
I wasn't there on Bloody Sunday, but I was there shortly after, and I can inform you that there's nothing like a bit of experience to give you a new perspective of the reality of such volatile situations.

No one side comes out of this inquiry smelling of roses

Yeah, but one side stinks of sh*t...

You're right there. Mistakes were made, but try to bear in mind that the terrorists actions are pro-active, planned and pre-meditated. And usually callous and cowardly. To provide a perfect re-active response you would have to change your name to God.

Apologies, my quotes are mixed up. Both my comments here are new posts.

 

[ellal]

You're right there. Mistakes were made, but try to bear in mind that the terrorists actions are pro-active, planned and pre-meditated.

Unlike of course the army going in to 'teach people a lesson'...

 

[ellal]

I was referring to this post not Saville

Maybe in future you should make it more obvious...

 

[lifesagasman]

IF that were the case. Was the culpability at Command level or at street level?
Were you there?

 

[ellal]

IF that were the case. Was the culpability at Command level or at street level?

It's been recorded in multiple reports that this was the case, not IF...

'Culpability' is obviously shared...

Were you there?

Were you? I see you weren't !

If you rely on that argument, then no-one but immediate witnesses to any event have any right to comment on anything, including yourself...

 

[lifesagasman]

Response to ellal

lifesagasman wrote

Since very few, if any, of these 'paramilitaries' presented themselves in a recognisable uniform to make themselves identifiable to their 'opponents' (British Army and RUC, both in uniform) it would be fairly accurate to describe them as terrorists, or armed civilians. Of course, this provides perfect cover for their activities and allows them to be quickly lost in a crowd. It is a well known ploy, but those actions obviously endanger those civilians in the vicinity. That is of little concern to the terrorist as civilian losses incurred during consequent military counter-action can readily be blamed on the Army for not being cautious enough.
It would be interesting to know, ellal, exactly how you would react in a similar situation. Have you ever been on the receiving end of sniper fire?
Or had petrol/nail bombs thrown your way?
Imagine policing a large crowd on a hot day with confused/incomplete information passing around, a hostile crowd, uncertainty, adrenaline, fear of the unexpected, etc etc. I trust your comments and opinions are tempered with experience of this kind of situation?
I wasn't there on Bloody Sunday, but I was there shortly after, and I can inform you that there's nothing like a bit of experience to give you a new perspective of the reality of such volatile situations.

 

[ellal]

Imagine policing a large crowd on a hot day with confused/incomplete information passing around, a hostile crowd, uncertainty, adrenaline, fear of the unexpected, etc etc.

Hmm

How 'hot' do you think Londonderry was on 30th January?...

Do get your facts right...

 

[lifesagasman]

IF that were the case. Was the culpability at Command level or at street level?

It's been recorded in multiple reports that this was the case, not IF...

'Culpability' is obviously shared...

Were you there?

Were you? I see you weren't !

If you rely on that argument, then no-one but immediate witnesses to any event have any right to comment on anything, including yourself...

You're right, which is why I have made no comments on the events of that day.

You have given a lot of opinion , so what was your involvement on that day? Were you there?
Has your first-hand evidence been submitted to the report?

Please read my previous (re-posted) post, above. You can see that I have made no judgement on the events.

 

[lifesagasman]

Imagine policing a large crowd on a hot day with confused/incomplete information passing around, a hostile crowd, uncertainty, adrenaline, fear of the unexpected, etc etc.

Hmm

How 'hot' do you think Londonderry was on 30th January?...

Do get your facts right...

I didn't state a fact, I asked a generic question.


Here's another question. Do you get hot (generally) running from street to street in full combat gear and flak jacket, carrying an SLR and waiting for sniper fire at any time, or is it a walk in the park for you?

PS you may not have slept more than a few minutes during the last 48 hours

 

[ellal]

You're right, which is why I have made no comments on the events of that day.

Really?..I suppose your comments about 'paramilitaries' not being recognisable referred to other events and explicitly NOT this one?

keep digging...

 

[ellal]

I didn't state a fact, I asked a generic question.

This was not a 'generic' event, so your comment has no validity...

Here's another question. Do you get hot (generally) running from street to street in full combat gear and flak jacket, carrying an SLR and waiting for sniper fire at any time, or is it a walk in the park for you?

And there's the mistake...

full combat gear?...why were soldiers in 'full combat gear' sent in to do 'crowd control'?

The holes in your argument just keep getting bigger...

PS you may not have slept more than a few minutes during the last 48 hours

And given your logic, did you witness that?