The Saville Report

[lifesagasman]

IF that were the case. Was the culpability at Command level or at street level?

It's been recorded in multiple reports that this was the case, not IF...

'Culpability' is obviously shared...

Were you there?

Were you? I see you weren't !

If you rely on that argument, then no-one but immediate witnesses to any event have any right to comment on anything, including yourself...

Ellal, please note that this was your post, so you can stop the suggestion that I am repeating my own posts, I am repeating what you posted, and I have already agreed that if you weren't there you may have opinions about what you believe to be the facts., but I fail to see how you are able to make authoritive statements of fact such as 'The Army murdered civilians'
You may notice, if you have actually read my posts, that I have not given opinions about the events of Bloody Sunday, because, as I pointed out before your (above) post, I was not there.
I have asked if you were there, I have asked if you witnessed the events, I have asked if you have any experience of similar events, I have asked what you think you would do in their place. You gave no answers which tells its' own story.

Since your posts bear an uncanny resemblance to shi*ty22's posts, I find any future discussion with you quite pointless.
You make 'statements of fact' which really amount to nothing more than speculation, and your chosen form of debate borders on bullying.
You can continue trying to convert others to your way of thinking as much as you like. On this topic, I'm out.

 

[joinerjohn]

Why were there no residues of petrol bombs? - because there weren't any
What nail bombs? - the planted ones?
Only one machine gun was talked about - so why embelish the weaponry?
Why were people shot in the back - you can't explain that can you!

We could go on, but then it doesn't fit your idea of the 'truth' does it...here's a hint for you - the british army aren't always in the right..

Ellal, You have so obviously not read the Saville report thoroughly enough.
Other weapons are mentioned in the report and there's photographic evidence of armed civilians. (in the report).
The evidence that the nail bombs were planted on Donaghy were doubted by the report and Lord Saville accepts that Donaghy did have nail bombs on his person that day.
In the report there are accounts of automatic weapon fire. The British Army had single shot weapons at the time.
I'd really suggest you read the whole report, instead if skimming over the bits that blame 1 Para before posting again on this subject.

 

[ellal]

Since your posts bear an uncanny resemblance to shi*ty22's posts, I find any future discussion with you quite pointless..

So what are you suggesting here?

You make 'statements of fact' which really amount to nothing more than speculation, and your chosen form of debate borders on bullying.

Since you obviously have no debating skills when challenged, maybe it's better you head off to hide behind those 'apron strings' ...

Not the first time when you've been found wanting either is it...

On this topic, I'm out.

See ya...

 

[ellal]

I wonder why so many posts that reply to jj's b*llshit disappear...

For those wondering what it was...

joinerjohn wrote:

Ellal, You have so obviously not read the Saville report thoroughly enough.
Other weapons are mentioned in the report and there's photographic evidence of armed civilians. (in the report).

But can you tell me if any of this was relevant to the troop's actions? I think you'll find the conclusion was that it wasn't, so your supposition is irrelevant!

Oh, but of course you've conveniently ignored that havn't you...If you can show me in the report where possession/use of weapons by republicans were a trigger to the para's actions, then please do so - you won't because you can't !

Your sidekick 'gasman' has 'thanked' you, but then you're both wrong as usual...

I'd really suggest you read the whole report, instead if skimming over the bits that blame 1 Para before posting again on this subject.

I'd suggest you don't pick out bits that you twist to support your warped viewpoint... icon_wink.gif

People like you (and gasman) are exactly the type of people who keep conflicts going - because you can't admit when 'your side' is wrong!

Quite pathetic!

ps...I can copy and paste this as fast as it's deleted d*ckhead...

 

[joinerjohn]

So I suppose "civilians" carrying arms in NI happens all the time? Perhaps you think they armed themselves for protection.
Here's a supposition for you. The only other people in NI that were armed apart from the forces were IRA, UDF and splinter group members. I don't think UDF members were on that march.
You fail to respond to the "alleged " planting of nail bombs on Donaghy.(yeah right I forgot, he was innocent) (NOT).
Got an answer yet to the automatic weapons fire that was reported (and mentioned in the report), when the troops were armed with single shot weapons ?
No you don't and so resort to calling people names.

Read the rules of the forum ellal. Keep it up and your days on here are surely numbered.

 

[lifesagasman]

ps...I can copy and paste this as fast as it's deleted d*ckhead...

QED

 

[obmcfc]

Ellal have a read at a few of this links, in my eyes apart from the first one these are from normal everyday people in NI

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/Exparatroopers-criticise-findings-of-Saville.6375601.jp

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/39I-want-McGuinness-in-the.6375607.jp

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/Protestors-vent-fury-over-39onesided.6375623.jp

please don't say again this was about one incident......

You get chance to read these Ellal?

 

[Gasman28]

Ellal - where do your allegiances stand? Are you pro British, or pro terrorist? Are your origins somewhere apart from the UK?
...I can copy and paste this as fast as it's dickhead.. '
It appears that your thoughts are elsewhere - shame that you weren't.

 

[ellal]

Read the rules of the forum ellal. Keep it up and your days on here are surely numbered.

Here's a supposition for you. The only other people in NI that were armed apart from the forces were IRA, UDF and splinter group members. I don't think UDF members were on that march.
You fail to respond to the "alleged " planting of nail bombs on Donaghy.(yeah right I forgot, he was innocent) (NOT).
Got an answer yet to the automatic weapons fire that was reported (and mentioned in the report), when the troops were armed with single shot weapons ?

Supposition now is it?...and you 'don't think' (never a truer word spoken!)

Like I say...If you can show me in the report where possession/use of weapons by republicans were a trigger to the para's actions, then please do so - you won't because you can't !

And still noting you havn't replied when caught out b*llshitting elsewhere

 

[ellal]

You get chance to read these Ellal?

And these links prove what exactly?

 

[ellal]

Ellal - where do your allegiances stand? Are you pro British, or pro terrorist? Are your origins somewhere apart from the UK?It appears that your thoughts are elsewhere - shame that you weren't.

Where there's an injustice (on either side in a conflict) I condemn it...who exactly is the terrorist when innocent civilians are murdered by whatever means?

Pity some here can't accept that 'their side' may be at fault too...

And interesting that 'some' of those with gas in their username (let alone 'gas' in their posts) show a distinct trait of misplaced xenophobia...

 

[ellal]

..

 

[joinerjohn]

Ellal - where do your allegiances stand? Are you pro British, or pro terrorist? Are your origins somewhere apart from the UK?It appears that your thoughts are elsewhere - shame that you weren't.

Where there's an injustice (on either side in a conflict) I condemn it...who exactly is the terrorist when innocent civilians are murdered by whatever means?

Pity some here can't accept that 'their side' may be at fault too...

And interesting that 'some' of those with gas in their username (let alone 'gas' in their posts) show a distinct trait of misplaced xenophobia...

I have already accepted that 1Para, made mistakes. It isn't going to bring anyone back.
Lord Saville accepts that the first shots fired that day were from IRA weapons
I quote the exact words used by Lord Saville himself in the report.

""19.180 As we have stated, the evidence of paramilitary gunfire in Sector 1 is confusing. However, we have no doubt that OIRA 1 fired the shot that hit the drainpipe on the side of the Presbyterian church; and we equally have no doubt that there was other paramilitary gunfire in this sector before soldiers of 1 PARA went into the Bogside. The evidence suggests to us that this was probably firing by members of the Official IRA.""

He himself uses the word "Probably"
So I must assume this is a supposition too??

Yet you keep saying that the use of weapons was not a trigger for the Army???

As I have said before on this subject. All it has done is to rake over old wounds. Some very wealthy lawyers have received even more wealth from this. The people of NI have received not one penny from it.

 

[obmcfc]

You get chance to read these Ellal?

And these links prove what exactly?

Don't really prove anything, but to me it sums up what ordinary people on the street in Northern Ireland feel about the Report.

 

[ellal]

I have already accepted that 1Para, made mistakes. It isn't going to bring anyone back.
Lord Saville accepts that the first shots fired that day were from IRA weapons
I quote the exact words used by Lord Saville himself in the report.

""19.180 As we have stated, the evidence of paramilitary gunfire in Sector 1 is confusing. However, we have no doubt that OIRA 1 fired the shot that hit the drainpipe on the side of the Presbyterian church; and we equally have no doubt that there was other paramilitary gunfire in this sector before soldiers of 1 PARA went into the Bogside. The evidence suggests to us that this was probably firing by members of the Official IRA.""

He himself uses the word "Probably"
So I must assume this is a supposition too??

Yet you keep saying that the use of weapons was not a trigger for the Army???

As I have said before on this subject. All it has done is to rake over old wounds. Some very wealthy lawyers have received even more wealth from this. The people of NI have received not one penny from it.

But the crucial point is that did those apparent shots 'trigger' the actual acknowledged brutal actions of the paras?

Was their sustained fire, and the murder of innocent civilains (laughingly called 'mistakes' by yourself), justified on that 'probability' then?

Of course lawyers make money - they often do...but to dismiss it in monetary terms shows your ignorance. The redeemed reputation of family members is worth more than any amount of money!