The truth about 'Road Pricing'...

[ellal]

The NEW passport system that has been introduced is the first step along the road to a truly integrated system in the Industrialised world and for nearly all countries outside that to0, as most have adopted this standard. This IS reducing the ability of forgers to create counterfeit passports and other travel documents reliant on that database. We, in the UK, only use it for the new passport scheme as yet. If you reduce the amount of fake passports, then you reduce the crime that is reliant on the use of these passports for certain activities, such as opening dodgy bank accounts.

Can you tell me where the 'blueprint' for this plan is?..All the main protagonists quote others as the reason they have to bring in the measures that they are. The UK says that it has to include fingerprints because the EU says so (untrue - the only biometric required is a digitised photo) and that we need them because of the requirements of the US (also untrue). The US is trying to push 'Real ID' because of what's happening over here!

But nowhere does it say we need ID cards and the database behind it!

Either there is a 'masterplan', or it's just a muddle..although I happen to think, despite the elements of 'control', it's also a way of getting some very big companies some huge contracts - and at the moment the UK is beginning to look like the 'shop front' for these technologies.

And of course the 'foot soldiers' get rewarded - any coincidence that Blunkett now has a nice cushy job at a firm in the running for ID contracts?...

The measures may reduce forged documents (in the short term), but after that 'cloned' passports/ID cards will be easier to produce, and they IMO will be far more valuable because of the reasons I have given earlier - better to have one 'trusted' forgery than many not so trusted ones!

 

[Softus]

You can take the question mark out of the sentence, but you can't take the insecurity out of the questioner.

 

[megawatt]

Stulz: I would be far more inclined to take anything you said seriously if you backed it up with facts rather than unsubstantiated statements.

Once again, in reference to the statement you made below ...

What i meant was that in countries that operate an ID card system that is backed up with proper computer databases this system has been used as an example for lower incidence of certain types of crime.

Despite having a deep interest in this subject and being reasonably well informed, I have heard of nothing which supports that statement. I do concede that I may have missed something though and I am prepared to be convinced by hard facts.

You asked me:

Please explain why you feel this is an outrageous claim?

I feel that it is an outrageous claim because you have failed to produce any evidence that it is not. As requested, please demonstrate by facts that this is true and not simply another "world according to Stulz" claim ... Nobody is interested in the latter.

I'm sure you'll accuse me of making yet another "silly" statement but don't hold back ... I'm used to it by now

 

[Stulz]

Mega..To comment on some of your points.

Firstly with regards to the blueprint, I have no idea who started all this. I have never read anything of any description that would be regarded as such. Personally I would go along with the idea of a muddle that evolved from seperate thoughts to something coherent, but not necessarilly workable or practicable.

With regards to facts, I can provide links etc should I choose, but as you do not try to justify your irrational statements with facts and links, and you cannot even justify some of what you say within your post in your own words, why the hell should I do it.

Have you never heard of Google, Alta-Vista or other search engines, i tell you what, here is a thought, why don't you try the Home Office website, the Ministry of Justice, The EU pages and the US government sites. You never know you may find enough information to either support your arguments or allay your fears. You really never know till you try.

As somewhere to start, try this:
http://www.identitycards.gov.uk/about.asp

 

[Balenza]

Ellal wrote

No mention of public debate as usual...

Thats because your living in a dictatorship imposed by Brussels.
Even if Whitehall give the people a say , Brussels can over rule it.
They did it in Ireland a few years ago when a referendum gave the people a say and they returned a NO vote on matters relating to Irish constituional change.
Anyway this wasn't the answer Brussels wanted and in true dictatorship style they ordered another referendum and give the Yes side of the camp huge financial backing to run an advertising campaign in order to secure the yes vote and second time around they got the answer they wanted simply by rigged methods.

 

[Balenza]

Stulz wrote

Mega..To comment on some of your points.

Firstly with regards to the blueprint, I have no idea who started all this. I have never read anything of any description that would be regarded as such. Personally I would go along with the idea of a muddle that evolved from seperate thoughts to something coherent, but not necessarilly workable or practicable.

With regards to facts, I can provide links etc should I choose, but as you do not try to justify your irrational statements with facts and links, and you cannot even justify some of what you say within your post in your own words, why the hell should I do it.

Have you never heard of Google, Alta-Vista or other search engines, i tell you what, here is a thought, why don't you try the Home Office website, the Ministry of Justice, The EU pages and the US government sites. You never know you may find enough information to either support your arguments or allay your fears. You really never know till you try.

Your probably an overpaid civil servant going by the jist of your posts with to much time on you hands. I would be fairly confident that you have never done decent days work in your life.
Your a drain on legitimate tax payers like myself and if I was in power I would sack most of you freeing billions of pounds to help more charitable and worthy organisations.

 

[Stulz]

Your probably an overpaid civil servant going by the jist of your posts with to much time on you hands.
Your a drain on legitimate tax payers like myself and if I was in power I would sack most of you freeing billions of pounds to help more charitable organisations.

You'd also definitly be wrong. I was in the Royal Marines for 22 years and actually fought for this country so people like you have the freedoms to write that drivel.

Now I work for the Government in a different capacity that involves access to documents that give me an insight into many of the issues discussed. I can assure you that I am not overpaid and my wages come from the Ministry of Defence.

Yes I do consider myself a public servant, but I am not a civil servant. No I do not wear a uniform anymore in order to do my job.

Do I believe that the ID system will provide security and benefits to the nation..Yes I do, however, as I have hinted, I do think the current proposals actually do enough to meet the needs fo the security services nor do they do enough to allay the fears of the public about their use, and the Government is not doing enough to convince the public or at least provide the required information for the public to make an informed choice, rather than relying on scaremonger stories in the Sun and other tabloid papers.

 

[Stulz]

Ellal wrote


Thats because your living in a dictatorship imposed by Brussels.
Even if Whitehall give the people a say , Brussels can over rule it.
They did it in Ireland a few years ago when a referendum gave the people a say and they returned a NO vote on matters relating to Irish constituional change.
Anyway this wasn't the answer Brussels wanted and in true dictatorship style they ordered another referendum and give the Yes side of the camp huge financial backing to run an advertising campaign in order to secure the yes vote and second time around they got the answer they wanted simply by rigged methods.

Have you actually read up on anything you just spoke of. Brussels has no legal powers over a National Government in the way you describe, and if the Government here chose to call a referendum then Europe has no jurisdiction over that decision.

If Brussels actually advised the Irish Government to do another referendum then the decision was made by the Irish Government and no Brussels. Is the system perfect, of course not, Brussels has influence and it may have abused powers to sway a decision in Ireland, but it has no powers of the type you state. FACT.

 

[ellal]

You can take the question mark out of the sentence, but you can't take the insecurity out of the questioner.

You ceased to have anything of interest to say in this topic a long time ago...

So quote away instead of contributing, but all can see your lack of a decent argument...

 

[Softus]

You ceased to have anything of interest to say in this topic a long time ago.

Not so - I just got bored with posting rational arguments just to see you vomit yet more hysterical and extremist propaganda all over it.

all can see your lack of a decent argument.

Oh I'm not presenting any argument [any more], because there's nothing here to argue against, just the usual paranoia that can't be assuaged or appeased.

 

[ellal]

Do I believe that the ID system will provide security and benefits to the nation..Yes I do, however, as I have hinted, I do think the current proposals actually do enough to meet the needs fo the security services nor do they do enough to allay the fears of the public about their use, and the Government is not doing enough to convince the public or at least provide the required information for the public to make an informed choice, rather than relying on scaremonger stories in the Sun and other tabloid papers.

You really are spinning the government line...

The government has done all it possibly could to AVOID informing the public of it's plans..all the way from the start when the ID system was called a 'voluntary entitlement card'..

What they did was learn from the australian experience on the '80's when they tried to introduce their version...the truth got out before there was time to get it implemented, and an informed public got it stopped!

All the reasons for having it have been debunked time after time, but the excuses are just recycled every time there is an 'incident' or a report outlining anything that could have the slightest link to ID..

The government are the ones doing the scaremongering...and they never had any intention of giving the public a choice, informed or otherwise!!

 

[ellal]

You ceased to have anything of interest to say in this topic a long time ago.

Not so - I just got bored with posting rational arguments just to see you vomit yet more hysterical and extremist propaganda all over it.

all can see your lack of a decent argument.

Oh I'm not presenting any argument [any more], because there's nothing here to argue against, just the usual paranoia that can't be assuaged or appeased.

 

[Softus]

So quote away instead of contributing, but all can see your lack of a decent argument.

an example of quoting away (with a lack of decent argument) instead of contributing

At least you understand what bored means.

 

[masona]

Do I believe that the ID system will provide security and benefits to the nation..Yes I do, however, as I have hinted, I do think the current proposals actually do enough to meet the needs fo the security services nor do they do enough to allay the fears of the public about their use, and the Government is not doing enough to convince the public or at least provide the required information for the public to make an informed choice, rather than relying on scaremonger stories in the Sun and other tabloid papers.

Okay, then what about the thousand of passports that get stolen and missing in the post every year, so the ID cards will be the same open to fraud

Tony B lair quoted in 1998 "Instead of wasting hundreds of millions of pounds on compulsory ID cards...let that money provide thousands more police officers."

 

[Softus]

Tony B lair quoted in 1998 "Instead of wasting hundreds of millions of pounds on compulsory ID cards...let that money provide thousands more police officers."

I'm not a fan of Tony Blair, but nor am I a fan of people holding every politician to every single utterance they ever make.

The type and quantity of spending is entirely different, so if you ever believed the statement that TB made way back in 1998, then more fool you.