The Truth over Israel and Hamas

[Mottie]

 

[omph]

How ironic that you think that way when this man has been there and worn the T shirt, yet you who has never been to Gaza or seen these events but can sit there and make that statement. Your list doesn't make any difference. However you are entitled to your opinions.

That's a special pleading logical fallacy. It assumes that we must rely (1) on the judgement of the witness, (2) they have no partialities, (3) they are speaking the truth, (4) there are no lapses in their judgement - in other words there is no objective or rational framework that can be used to assess the narrative and it can only be done by those who have witnessed it and that first person testimony is the only way to establish a fact. Utterly utterly utterly absurd and I agree with @MNW67 - pseudo intellectual.

 

[fillyboy]

Anyway, back on topic:

https://www.reuters.com/world/this-is-hamas-us-special-envoy-witkoff-says-new-gaza-fighting-2025-03-23/

WASHINGTON, March 23 (Reuters) - The Hamas militant group is responsible for the renewed fighting in Gaza after rejecting efforts to move forward with what had been an "acceptable deal," U.S. special envoy Steve Witkoff said on Sunday, even as he said he would be open to new outreach.
"So this is on Hamas. The United States stands with the state of Israel," Witkoff told Fox News. "Hamas had every opportunity to demilitarize, to accept the bridging proposal." After weeks of relative calm in the Gaza Strip, following a ceasefire deal reached in January, attempts to agree an extension of the halt in fighting stalled and Israel resumed its air strikes and deployed ground troops in areas across the strip.

 

[Vinty]

I’m going to contact screwfix admin and see if they can take back Petal01 and Highway Nan

Failing that, I’m sure Mumsnet would have them

Maybe they are all the same person.

 

[Highway Man]

Anyway, back on topic:

https://www.reuters.com/world/this-is-hamas-us-special-envoy-witkoff-says-new-gaza-fighting-2025-03-23/

WASHINGTON, March 23 (Reuters) - The Hamas militant group is responsible for the renewed fighting in Gaza after rejecting efforts to move forward with what had been an "acceptable deal," U.S. special envoy Steve Witkoff said on Sunday, even as he said he would be open to new outreach.
"So this is on Hamas. The United States stands with the state of Israel," Witkoff told Fox News. "Hamas had every opportunity to demilitarize, to accept the bridging proposal." After weeks of relative calm in the Gaza Strip, following a ceasefire deal reached in January, attempts to agree an extension of the halt in fighting stalled and Israel resumed its air strikes and deployed ground troops in areas across the strip.

Apologies, I didn't take this off topic, that was due to the socially inept. I cant see this looking good for hamas now.

 

[Koolpc]

I like Douglas Murray. To me, he talks a lot of sense.

​

 

[Highway Man]

Denying hostages is on Hamas. Dropping bombs is on Israel, both can be implicated and it need not be mutually exclusive. If a woman slaps you and you beat her to a pulp and then blame her for your lack of restraint - well, that is a special kind of evil.

Israel is pretty much setting itself up to destroy itself. I don't see how it will have any legitimately moving forward. The average joe has gone from sympathising with them, to doubting them, to condemning them and it seems an increasing number are actively start to hate on the Israel. There is a clear trajectory and its downwards. If they displace Gaza then all bets are off. We are not even talking of the muslim world which is increasingly unifying and there are signs that civil wars may be looming. This is a very dangerous precedent.

The US empire is also undergoing the death throws, and naturally tired of its global hegomeny and is becoming more insular. An increasing number of countries are also sick of American machoism and are formulating new trade ties. The US may feel current trade relationships are unfair, but the US dollar is the reserve currency of the world which is practically what has given them leverage and global dominance - that is now cracking, and rapidly with Trump. If the dollars falls, good bye America and Little England too.

Strategically, what Israel has done is the most retarted thing a nation could possibly do. It has effectively undermined its own moral narrative in front of humanity, it has turned the world against itself, it has riled up 2 billion people, it is hanging onto the coat tails of a dying empire - Israel is in a really bad position and I'm not sure if it'll even survive at this rate.

So what are they supposed to do? Just accept that hamas has kidnapped and holds hostages, They have no options but to retaliate.

 

[Highway Man]

There is an art form to warfare, something which is seemingly eluding Israel/US. Churchill put it succinctly - I'd rather jaw jaw than war war. War is not a guarantor of success, usually diplomacy and a limited form of warfare in certain circumstances yields more fruit.

It is very rare to encounter "terrorist" groups doing things for the sake of it. There is usually a complex underlying grievance that needs engagement. Not doing that will only increase the problem. As it stands, Israel went from the Abraham Accords and a minor Hamas problem to a possible full out regional war and instead of 40k men in a strip, possibly over 2 billion people that are ready to war with them - THAT is a failed strategy. If you can't get along with your neighbours you have lost.

If Israel displaces the Gazans, it will in all likelihood break out into a full scale regional war. It will hit home too because oil prices will sky rocket. This is not in anyone's interest.

Although considering just how deranged things are becoming, It is becoming increasing clear that this has little to do with Hamas and more so the expulsion of Palestinians and the instatement of a Greater Israel. There is mounting evidence that not only did the state know about Oct 7th, they actively did little to prevent it.

Two ways of looking at it, they are ethnic cleansing and taking over Palestine using this war to do that or they are retaliating to a horrendous attack on Oct 7th and are genuinely attacking hamas which seems to be using the Palestinans as human shields. If you look on it as why have they took the hostages in the first place and why wont they hand them back?

 

[fillyboy]

Denying hostages is on Hamas. Dropping bombs is on Israel, both can be implicated and it need not be mutually exclusive. If a woman slaps you and you beat her to a pulp and then blame her for your lack of restraint - well, that is a special kind of evil.

Yes but if that woman, let's for the sake of argument call her a specially evil kind of woman, spends 75 years slapping you round the face, she needs to be destroyed.

Israel is pretty much setting itself up to destroy itself. I don't see how it will have any legitimately moving forward. The average joe has gone from sympathising with them, to doubting them, to condemning them and it seems an increasing number are actively start to hate on the Israel. There is a clear trajectory and its downwards. If they displace Gaza then all bets are off. We are not even talking of the muslim world which is increasingly unifying and there are signs that civil wars may be looming. This is a very dangerous precedent.

There are plenty of average joe's who still support Israel. Iranian money travels a long way around the world to fund activism, the weekly demos in London and the campuses in America are proof of this. Israel isn't destroying itself, it will carry on fighting an existential battle for it's own survival.
You seem to be making the mistake of believing that Israel is a small nest of jews in the middle of a group of Arab countries that despise them. That was true at one time, it no longer is, countries like Jordan and Egypt who have signed peace treaties with Israel recognise the mutual benefits, the October 7th massacre occurred shortly before Saudi were going to normalise relations with Israel.
There is only one Arab country who is determined to destroy Israel and that is Iran, hence their funding of Hamas, Hezbollah, Huthis and Lord knows who else.

The US empire is also undergoing the death throws, and naturally tired of its global hegomeny and is becoming more insular. An increasing number of countries are also sick of American machoism and are formulating new trade ties. The US may feel current trade relationships are unfair, but the US dollar is the reserve currency of the world which is practically what has given them leverage and global dominance - that is now cracking, and rapidly with Trump. If the dollars falls, good bye America and Little England too.

That's a lot of chest beating there, do you intend invading Russia before or after America falls. Little England doesn't even enter into it.

Strategically, what Israel has done is the most retarded thing a nation could possibly do. It has effectively undermined its own moral narrative in front of humanity, it has turned the world against itself, it has riled up 2 billion people, it is hanging onto the coat tails of a dying empire - Israel is in a really bad position and I'm not sure if it'll even survive at this rate.

So, you think Israel should surrender to Islamic terrorists in the ridiculous belief that would ensure their survival.

**** me.

 

[MNW67]

Good night @Bazza-spark

I really hope you two sort this out

 

[Highway Man]

Good night @Bazza-spark

I really hope you two sort this out

AAww your all heart

 

[fillyboy]

I don't care, you can come on every day you weirdo. But if you would rather see me face to face then that would be my preferred preference. Or are you to coward for that Mr Keyboard warrior and a liar. No need for you to keep coming on here, just meet up with me and have it out man to man.

On a previous forum I used to frequent, a financial services one. It was customary for the two arguing parties to challenge each other to a fight to the death duel in a Travelodge car park.

 

[omph]

Two ways of looking at it, they are ethnic cleansing and taking over Palestine using this war to do that or they are retaliating to a horrendous attack on Oct 7th and are genuinely attacking hamas which seems to be using the Palestinans as human shields. If you look on it as why have they took the hostages in the first place and why wont they hand them back?

Or they are doing both. Like I said, the two are not mutually exclusives. Israel could be enacting revenge but also performing a genocidal campaign.

Some classes of genocide are usually preceded by some perceived act of betrayal, or violence in an already tense situation e.g. the Armenian genocide, or the Rwanda genocide. The Gazan one seems to fit into this camp, an act of violence leads to a wholly disproportionate response.

The problem here is you are so fixated on Hamas you are unaware of how the world around you is rapidly changing. The issue as it stands now is no longer about Hamas, it is existential.
You can either concede that you've cocked it up and pull back or you can live in delusion. The truth is an increasing number of people in the West went from empathising with Israel to now actively hating it and cursing it at every opportune moment. The change is shockingly drastic and I'm seeing it from people I would have never deemed to do such things - This is not in Israel's interest.

They are going to drag humanity into a possible third world war at this rate, and yet here you are lamenting over split milk - cut your losses and move forward otherwise the future looks very bleak.

This is no longer about Hamas.

 

[MNW67]

.

 

[MNW67]

I apologised to Barry the very same night I accused him, He got upset and was being like he does, he said that he was hurt that I would accuse him, he said he was going to delete his account and leave the forum through it. I told him not to do that and I would do the honourable thing and leave instead so that he could stay without my presence. He then left and deleted his account. What would me deleting mine have done after that

I agree with that logic. For some reason it seems very important to him. Almost like he felt you had an agreement. It is difficult for me. I have a soft spot for Barry from that first two weeks on the forum. Do you know anyway this can be resolved. He seems to be saying if you delete your account then come straight back with a new account and different user name he would be happy.