thoughts on non notifiable work

[ericmark]

I have started a new thread, as we are moving away from the original question. see here .

 

[Tom__40]

I've seen/read that come the 18th edition cables need to be adequately supported in the event of premature collapse, so I was thinking the easiest way is metal cable clips clipped ~50mm below the top of the joists.

'That does not apply to cables under the floorboards.'

Really? I guess it is premature collapse. The cables would most certainly collapse if the fire burned through the ceiling if not clipped to the joists, or looking at the melting point of PVC they'd probably do that first with the copper inside left to collapse after. If it's a standard 12.5mm plasterboard ceiling they're supposed to have 30mins fire resistance. I guess it would depend on interpretation of the word premature...?

It would seem you can pick up what looks like older earth loop testers on ebay for around £50-80 or so (Robin make there are a couple at the moment).

This kind of thing slightly irks me, I get that there are laws/rules to be followed but at the same time if you go by the letter of the law we're not even supposed to change a light fitting without having it all tested and certified, which seems ridiculous. I don't have kids/any other vulnerable people in my situation, but I am thinking of getting a couple of lodgers in when I've done my house up so will have to think carefully. Regarding the whole no RCD thing being a problem, if the consumer unit's upgraded to RCBO's shortly after and it's just me in the house till then, not really a problem I think.

 

[DetlefSchmitz]

I've seen/read that come the 18th edition cables need to be adequately supported in the event of premature collapse, so I was thinking the easiest way is metal cable clips clipped ~50mm below the top of the joists.

I believe they're talking about cables high on walls falling on firemen.

 

[ajohn]

Hi. I would like to extend my ring main which I understand is non-notifiable.

That is notifiable if extending means more sockets. Spurs off an existing ring are ok but if the CU isn't protected with an RCD a connection unit needs to be fitted with one of those in it. They are available.

Moving them and replacing cable probably isn't as no one is likely to know where they were.

Not having and RCD or using mcbo's introduces all sorts of nasty aspects for wiring that meets the latest regs when they are buried or run under floorboards.

If no RCD your best official answer is to find some one to update the CU and do the donkey work for any new cables yourself. An electrician may let you connect the sockets etc but not connect them to the mains. Best pick one and ask if they will work like that.

Metal clips get mentioned - they only need using where fire might cause a cable to sag and block the path a fireman my need to make use of. Some sense is needed as ceilings and rafters may fall down anyway.

Should also mention that a cu update does not mean that all needs updating to the latest spec's only new work. The old stuff does need to be safe and pass the checks. Providing the cable is ok it will very probably pass the tests.

 

[DetlefSchmitz]

That is notifiable if extending means more sockets.

I suspect you are just making that up. Please provide proof.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Hi. I would like to extend my ring main which I understand is non-notifiable.

You are quite right.

That is notifiable if extending means more sockets.

It is not notifiable - but what would be the point if not for more sockets?

Spurs off an existing ring are ok

I am interested in what you think the difference is between the two.

or using mcbo's

We all make typos but the 'm' and 'r' are some distance apart.

 

[JohnW2]

That is notifiable if extending means more sockets.

Where did that rubbish come from?

Even prior to the major relaxations in 2013 (prior to which most electrical work was notifiable) adding sockets to an existing circuit was one of the few things which was explicitly not notifiable!

Kind Regards, John

 

[phatboy]

I would just crack on, ensuring you comply with safe zones. Cable won't be buried to 50mm, making it no worse or better than anything else already there. Just plan to have the CU replaced soonish.

Cables in joists / beams.... my preference is 4-6" loops of 3c+e, with a clout nail into the beam. Means multiple cables can pass through it for no extra effort, and cables aren't fixed hard, so pulling in a replacement is sometimes possible.

 

[ajohn]

You are quite right.




It is not notifiable - but what would be the point if not for more sockets?


I am interested in what you think the difference is between the two.




We all make typos but the 'm' and 'r' are some distance apart.

Yes they are far apart but you know what I meant.

I have seen a comment specific to extending rings but looking in the latest quickly can't see any sign of it.

However I am pretty sure an electrician would want an rcd in the circuit if sockets were added and I do know of some commercial premisses that didn't want to upgrade the lot so used spurs to get round it. That wouldn't be under 2018 though as earlier.

So yes not notifiable but ...............

 

[JohnW2]

However I am pretty sure an electrician would want an rcd in the circuit if sockets were added ...

that's probably true, given that current regs are such that any new sockets should be RCD-protected. However, that can theoretically also be achieved by using RCD-sockets or, if appropriate, wiring the new socket(a) as fused spurs connected via an RCD FCU.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

What needs notifying does change depending on where you live. In Wales there are special locations which includes bathrooms, kitchens, and garden which need notifying, and some bits are daft, put an extension lead in a kitchen then no need to notify, tidy it up with some cable clips and some screws in the wall so it can't lie in water on counter, and you need to notify it was £100 plus vat.

Fit a socket and it is not a new circuit, fit a RCD FCU and it is a new circuit. So you should notify, but I am told even electricians who are scheme members so it does not cost them much, do not notify fitting a FCU which supplies a number of sockets, even it technically it is a new circuit, and Bladdon produced a kit to use in the garden to get around the notifying rules, but you had to remove the plug to get cable through the wall, so it was not pre-assembled.

Part P is really poorly written, they have tried to use electrical terms, but it seems the people writing it were not electricians, so a consumer unit is a type tested distribution unit, to keep its type testing it needs to only have items fitted in it recommended by the manufacturer, so fit some one else's MCB or a door bell transformer and it is no longer a consumer unit it is just a distribution unit, if you like it is like saying a motor cycle is a motor vehicle but a motor vehicle is not always a motor cycle, clearly they should have said distribution unit, and if it went to court the courts would clarify. We would get case law.

However I misplaced the completion certificate, and asked for a replacement, told it would take 4 months and I would need to pay £75 per hour with no upper limit for them to find it. So technically traceable, but in real terms it is simply a tax.

So if you fit a consumer unit with say 14 RCBO's and you test all the RCBO's are working, that means a circuit has been formed, so even if no wires fitted to the RCBO and it is only tested, it has been a circuit, so adding wires latter is not a new circuit, it has already been a circuit once. So until some one kills some one and a court case results, which would likely clarify what is considered a new circuit, no one can show I am wrong, I am sure that is not what was meant by a new circuit, but until a court clarifies you can say hand on heart it was not new, it has been part of a circuit before.

In other words the people writing the law did not have a command of English. This is common and has happened many many times, the one used as an example was ground nuts, not being nuts taken out of the ground. It seems the peanut is not a nut.

So you need to use common sense, the aim is not to be a test case, so unless you do some thing which kills some one, it is unlikely to become a test case, so step one is have RCD protection fitted, I am really tongue in cheek saying testing a RCBO means it has been a circuit, but if the powered local 13A socket right next to consumer unit, then it would clearly be a circuit, so just taking argument to nth degree.

The main idea is to shift blame so once you have done all you want to do, get an EICR done, it really does very little to find faults which could injure anyone, but it shows you have done what you could to ensure the safety of others, so even if you have done some thing wrong, if the EICR did not find it, it will likely give to a get out of jail free card.

 

[ajohn]

that's probably true, given that current regs are such that any new sockets should be RCD-protected. However, that can theoretically also be achieved by using RCD-sockets or, if appropriate, wiring the new socket(a) as fused spurs connected via an RCD FCU.

Kind Regards, John

On a certain other forum some love to read posts by electricians that are arguing all down to Part P and how it's written. It now seems to be pretty common for them to use an rcd fcu when spurs are added when there is an outdated CU, say Wylex. Done on the basis that their work is left safe and complies. I asked why not protect the entire circuit the spur is on using something like this. It doesn't matter what CU is before it as that wont be changed if an rcd fcu is used.

https://www.screwfix.com/p/wylex-ese2-ip40-2-module-unpopulated-din-enclosure/32311

or a metal cased shower rcd but as this is not a cu can plastic be used? The meter people are fitting plastic cased isolator switches.

Or if some one wants to rewire a room why not protect it's power circuits the same way. The "box" could be in the room. Some people have done this by using spurs entirely and no rcd. Use the box to run the spurs off. They must have come across the same update all when a ring is modified as I have some where or the other.It may be an IET thing rather than actually in the regs.

With some thought this sort of thing can be "corrected" when the cu is updated. For instance when our is I want the kitchen to be on it's own circuit. LOL If I had done this it would initially be wired to the current kitchen circuit but the wiring in the room complies - all of it.

I can't recollect seeing a section of the regs that say this must be done but the dam thing is organised in a way that makes identifying areas like this a bit tricky at times. I got so fed up of varying comments from qualified people I bought them. After buying the IET site guide and the guide to the building regs. That shows were problems crop up. Suddenly a kitchen isn't a special area so the building reg guide adds guidance that duplicates what was in the regs. Personally I think it was a sensible thing to follow. The limitations it imposes shouldn't cause problems.

Actually I found a box to wire to rather convenient.

 

[ajohn]

Personally by the way I think the rcd aspect is added due to the catch all about cable protection in if I remember correctly section 4 plus the fact that it's new work what ever is being done.

 

[JohnW2]

On a certain other forum some love to read posts by electricians that are arguing all down to Part P and how it's written.

Some people love arguing. However, even for them, there's a limit to how much arguing they can do as regards Part P, given that it is just one sentence!

It now seems to be pretty common for them to use an rcd fcu when spurs are added when there is an outdated CU, say Wylex. Done on the basis that their work is left safe and complies. I asked why not protect the entire circuit the spur is on using something like this....

I presume you mean with an RCD in it. If so, it's a reasonable question, but one answer is that it is not applicable for a ring final circuit.

Or if some one wants to rewire a room why not protect it's power circuits the same way. The "box" could be in the room.

Again, I presume you mean 'a box containing and RCD' - in which case, as above, it would not be applicable to a ring final.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

Personally by the way I think the rcd aspect is added due to the catch all about cable protection ...

Indeed, the requirement for any new 'buried wiring' to be RCD protected will often trump the requirement for RCD protection of sockets. Even adding an RCD socket (to a non-RCD-protected circuit) is not compliant with current regs if it involves new buried cable. In such circumstances, it would be possible to add new sockets as fused spur(s), if the FCU could be installed adjacent to an existing socket, since the FCU would then protect the new downstream wiring [as well as the socket(s)]. Some, of course, might even then argue about the couple of inches of cable between the (existing) socket and FCU!

Kind Regards, John