Trianco TRG80 - fire keeps dying

[Stadan20]

The top one aught to be hot and the bottom one recirculates so should still be hot . You could try turning off all rads for a short period of time once bottom pipe starts to warm then open rads back up

 

[Falladaboy]

The valve on the heat leak rad in the bathroom is seized solid - it's been untouched for 40 years, so no surprise. But are you saying that if I shut down all the rads - in the house? or just the ones that heat up by themselves (secondary heat leaks, so to speak) - that in itself might get the bottom pipe to get warmer? I can't pretend to understand how that works, but I can give it a try (though am unable, as I said, to turn off the main heat leak rad).

 

[Stadan20]

The rads that heat up . As by doing this you will force the flow more toward the hot water circuit

 

[Terrywookfit]

Are all your flue ways clear on boiler.

 

[Falladaboy]

Boiler - lit yesterday afternoon - went out again today. Fan was blasting away at 7 a.m., and all heat leak rads were lukewarm at best - they had been warm/hot to the touch all day and evening yesterday. It always seems to happen in the night that the fire drops to the point where it won't recover. I note that this new batch of fuel is looking slatey-grey again, which I gather is not a good sign .... So I can't - yet - try turning off the heat leak rads to see if that heats the HW cylinder coil properly - which seemingly is not happening at present (or back in the spring!), even when the boiler is up to temperature and working normally (for a day or two at the most, before it goes out again). Never had these problems in 40 years of running Triancos ....

 

[Falladaboy]

If anyone is still tapped in to this post, I still need some help. I've had four lots of anthracite grains to try - three small batches in addition to a big order in March - and I'm afraid they are all the same. The boiler struggles to keep going for more than a couple of days before the fire dies and I have to relight it. CPL are now telling me it's not the fuel - it's my boiler! I've been expecting that at some point. But the thing is this: the fuel is objectively different. The main thing I find is that it DOES NOT CLINKER UP as it is supposed to, and as it has consistently done for 45 years of running a Trianco. When it burns, it produces no hard clinker, just soft, crumbly lumps - and a whole load of dust. My theory is that this dust just smothers the fire, and although the fan is blasting away, the air just cannot get through the dust. Does anybody else recognize this, and is it, as I suppose, a sign of substandard fuel? CPL seem unable to supply anything that burns properly, and I'm not sure I have an alternative supplier in our area. So our situation is getting pretty desperate.

 

[wellfan]

Hi Falladaboy, I feel your pain. I was just about to give up on ours until I found a new coal merchant who has supplied us with wonderful anthracite, our third attempt. First real clinkering in a very long time, unfortunately he is probably too far away from you. He is just a very small family business, but his father still runs a Trianco, so knows the good stuff from the bad stuff. I will have a chat with him on Wednesday and see if he can give me some pointers to his supplier. My boiler still very occcasionally goes out, but i believe it is more to do with me losing my declinkering knack, when it goes out now it is stuffed full of very hard clinker. For over 35 years i never had a declinkering plan, I just did it on auto pilot. I now seem to be overthinking the process since the first issues with our coal, and either overclinkering or underclinkering. Anyway, I will post again on Wednesday. Where in the UK are you located?

 

[Falladaboy]

Thanks, wellfan, for your message and support. We're in SE Cornwall, near Liskeard. Two other (reasonably) local coal merchants seem to have stopped stocking anthracite quite recently, so I probably have few options here.
I know exactly what you mean about declinkering being a bit hit and miss sometimes, even with good fuel. I usually do it once after breakfast, and that's good enough most of the time, and for long periods; but every now and then it needs a few extra strokes to get on top of the clinkers. And I quite often had to break them up with a poker before the ram would even shift them: they got very large and very hard! None of that now; I just get these soft balls of semi-clinker and ash, no hard clinkers at all. Complete rubbish!
CPL don't seem to have a clue; they just distribute the stuff, and their idea of quality control seems to be "Wait and see if the customers complain". Not that complaining helps much, if they can't source decent anthracite themselves. Does my description of the fuel - and having to relight the boiler every couple of days - match your own experience? Because obviously it suits CPL to blame my boiler ...

 

[Terrywookfit]

$hite fuel again.
Anthracite should be black and shiny.
I have seen these boilers slumber for 3 days with no heating demand.

In the 1980,s , In an effort to save money " Coalflow Pearls" were introduced by the NCB for the Miners fuel allowance.
Despite fitting additional stats and a kindling timer to boost the fan every hour it was a failure.

As were the various coal flow boilers which were introduced.

 

[wellfan]

Thanks, wellfan, for your message and support. We're in SE Cornwall, near Liskeard. Two other (reasonably) local coal merchants seem to have stopped stocking anthracite quite recently, so I probably have few options here.
I know exactly what you mean about declinkering being a bit hit and miss sometimes, even with good fuel. I usually do it once after breakfast, and that's good enough most of the time, and for long periods; but every now and then it needs a few extra strokes to get on top of the clinkers. And I quite often had to break them up with a poker before the ram would even shift them: they got very large and very hard! None of that now; I just get these soft balls of semi-clinker and ash, no hard clinkers at all. Complete rubbish!
CPL don't seem to have a clue; they just distribute the stuff, and their idea of quality control seems to be "Wait and see if the customers complain". Not that complaining helps much, if they can't source decent anthracite themselves. Does my description of the fuel - and having to relight the boiler every couple of days - match your own experience? Because obviously it suits CPL to blame my boiler ...

Yep, CPL suck! Your story is an exact mirror of mine, use of poker was frequent, I actually bent one on the clinker as it was so hard. This new supplier seems like a decent guy, I explained my issue to him before proceeding with an order for six bags, has gone well so far now on my second delivery.
I am just about to respond to a post from Terrywookfit as his post has just reminded me that my wife and I could go away for a long weekend and the boiler would still be slumbering after three days of inactivity. Not sure that even this present supply would be up to that, but will be giving it a go sometime soon.
On a side note, got a quote for an oil boiler replacement, including all fittings and oil tank, £4,500. Got a quote for an air source heat pump system, £17,000. What a bloody joke, not even convinced they are worth spending a quid on.

 

[wellfan]

$hite fuel again.
Anthracite should be black and shiny.
I have seen these boilers slumber for 3 days with no heating demand.

In the 1980,s , In an effort to save money " Coalflow Pearls" were introduced by the NCB for the Miners fuel allowance.
Despite fitting additional stats and a kindling timer to boost the fan every hour it was a failure.

As were the various coal flow boilers which were introduced.

Yep, never had a problem going off with my wife for a long weekend, the boiler would always be still alive on our return. I do think we are seeing the end of decent anthracite, I have been fighting a battle since 2018 trying to find a decent supply, present supply is the best so far, by a long way.

 

[Falladaboy]

CPL now claim that another customer is using the same fuel as me - including some that was collected from me! - "with no problems". (Whether they have actually asked her or not, they don't say; it may just mean that she hasn't complained. Still.)
So my question is: can there possibly be anything wrong with my Trianco? I have checked the secondary air ducts (clear), checked and reassembled the ram, cleaned the fan blades, checked the idle/blast flap gaps, and regularly check and clean the flueways. Chimney swept in the spring - it was clean anyway. What else can I possibly do? But the fire goes out every two days or so - even on successive days. And it is no harder to get the fire going, with the firelighters, than it has ever been. And yet I am not getting hard clinkers, I am declinkering much more often than I have in the past, just in the hope of getting air through to a dying fire, and so I have a full ashcan to deal with every 2-3 days. How is it that I am having problems, when another customer, allegedly, isn't?

 

[Terrywookfit]

Ask yourself "What is Ash and Clinker"??

Answer. It is unburnt crap in the fuel.

Clinker forms due to the high temperatures in the fire bed, which will not be present .

 

[Falladaboy]

Thanks for your post, Terrywookfit. Just to be sure that I understand, and have joined the dots correctly: are you saying that the presence of so much ash - and no hard clinkers - basically proves that the fuel is crap? I have always suspected that clinkers - melted stuff fused together, hard enough to bend a poker! - are formed at high temperatures, and that the absence of proper clinkers, and the presence of masses of dust and soft ash, indicates (again) that the fuel is not burning hot enough (which is why the fire keeps dying). But I am no expert - this is just my supposition, based on what I see; you, on the other hand, clearly have a great deal of experience and knowledge here. If you can confirm the above, I'll weigh into CPL again ("Bite their bums and don't let go" is the best piece of commercial advice I've ever been given), but I think they know bugger all about the product they sell: they are retailers, not engineers.

 

[Terrywookfit]

I have never heard a coal merchant agree that the fuel is crap it is always a battle.

They will ALWAYS say.... "Nobody else has complained" Or Has a problem.

I remember one merchant who was selling coke that would not even light without a pile of kindling.
It was Sewage filter bed coke which was used for ships ballast for a few trips to clean it.