TT to PME?

Which is a whole different scenario than the loss of the neutral on a single phase service which very rarely damages appliances. Loss of neutral on a 3 phase network is a different case where it is possible to get over 400V live to neutral which is what causes the appliance damage ...
I'm a bit confused by that statement. I thought that the great majority of 'final' distribution circuits were 3-phase, even when only one of the phases was delivered to each (residential) property. ... or were you perhaps thinking about 'loss' of the neutral connection just to a single consumer? [I don't think that anyone talking about 'lost neutrals' has specified where the 'loss' is located]

Kind Regards, John.
 
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[I don't think that anyone talking about 'lost neutrals' has specified where the 'loss' is located]

This paragraph from bernard applies

Yes it is if the neutral to my cottage goes open circuit then the rod in the next door shop and all metal conected to it is raised to the same voltage as my disconnected neutral. If any appliance or lamp is on in my property when my neutral goes open circuit then my neutral goes up to live and so does my MET. No protective devices will act on this fault.

But in general terms there is a huge difference in the effects of where a neutral is lost.

I thought that the great majority of 'final' distribution circuits were 3-phase,

There are, in rural areas, a significant amount of single phase & split single phase distrubution systems.

It is rare to have 3 phase in residential properties as you know so the majority of services are single phase
 
[I don't think that anyone talking about 'lost neutrals' has specified where the 'loss' is located]
This paragraph from bernard applies
Yes it is if the neutral to my cottage goes open circuit then the rod in the next door shop and all metal conected to it is raised to the same voltage as my disconnected neutral. If any appliance or lamp is on in my property when my neutral goes open circuit then my neutral goes up to live and so does my MET. No protective devices will act on this fault.
Well, all he says is 'the neutral to my cottage'. You are presumably interpreting that as meaning 'the neutral which only goes to my cottage' (or, at least, which only goes to a few premises) but, from what he'd written, he could have meant, or included, neutral faults far more upstream than that, couldn't he?
It is rare to have 3 phase in residential properties as you know so the majority of services are single phase
Agreed (even though my house is an exception which proves the rule :) ) - but I thought that, in urban situations, the single phase supply to most residential properties was one phase (plus neutral) of a 3-phase supply?

Kind Regards, John
 
The breaking of an incoming neutral to one property where "earth" is from the neutral will bring the CPC up to a voltage likely to be hazardous. Inside the equipotential zone hazard will be small but any bonded item outside the zone ( outside water tap, gas meter, outside lamp ) WILL be a serious hazard.

If the break disconnects the neutral to a group of houses the voltage on the neutrals in those properties will depend on the ratio of loads per phase.
 
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The breaking of an incoming neutral to one property where "earth" is from the neutral will bring the CPC up to a voltage likely to be hazardous. Inside the equipotential zone hazard will be small but any bonded item outside the zone ( outside water tap, gas meter, outside lamp ) WILL be a serious hazard.
Even those 'outdoor hazards' will, in practice only usually apply to bare-footed individuals, or someone who somehow manages to have one hand on the ground and the other on the 'hazard'. Even leather-soled shoes, and certainly synthetic-soled ones, provide quite a high degree of insulation.

A sensible approach to all these theoretical risks would be to attempt to quantify them - particularly so that they could be compared with generally-accepted risks like crossing roads, travelling in cars, using ladders and power tools, engaging in sports etc. etc.

Kind Regards, John.
 
I thought that the great majority of 'final' distribution circuits were 3-phase, even when only one of the phases was delivered to each (residential) property. ... or were you perhaps thinking about 'loss' of the neutral connection just to a single consumer? [I don't think that anyone talking about 'lost neutrals' has specified where the 'loss' is located]
Isn't it (reasonably?) common for a street to have 3 phases in it - different houses being supplied with different ones?

So - all tied together with PME earths, interconnected ECPs..... N to some or all houses goes O/C....
 
I thought that the great majority of 'final' distribution circuits were 3-phase, even when only one of the phases was delivered to each (residential) property. ... or were you perhaps thinking about 'loss' of the neutral connection just to a single consumer? [I don't think that anyone talking about 'lost neutrals' has specified where the 'loss' is located]
Isn't it (reasonably?) common for a street to have 3 phases in it - different houses being supplied with different ones? ...So - all tied together with PME earths, interconnected ECPs..... N to some or all houses goes O/C....
Indeed. At least in terms of urban areas (and probably a lot more areas besides), my undertsanding was that 'common' is probably somewhat of an understatement - I thought it was close to being 'the norm'.

Kind Regards, John.
 
they could be compared with generally-accepted risks like crossing roads,
where the risk factors ( number and speed of vehicles ) are visible and can be seen before deciding if or when to cross the road. Country lane or busy motorway. Most people realise the hazards.

travelling in cars, using ladders and power tools, engaging in sports etc. etc.
also involve factors most of which visible to the person.

Faults that raise the MET to a hazardous potential are not visible to the person about to touch an "earthed" item while in contact with true ground. That is any item that is connected by CPC or bonds to the CPC.

The risk of electrical shock from a potential difference between a MET and true ground must have been perceived as significant as the use of "earthed" items in the garden is seen as hazardous resulting in the recommendation that all garden equipment is double insulated. Some items have the manufacturer's instruction that it MUST not be earthed.
 
they could be compared with generally-accepted risks like crossing roads,
where the risk factors ( number and speed of vehicles ) are visible and can be seen before deciding if or when to cross the road. Country lane or busy motorway. Most people realise the hazards.
travelling in cars, using ladders and power tools, engaging in sports etc. etc.
also involve factors most of which visible to the person. Faults that raise the MET to a hazardous potential are not visible to the person about to touch an "earthed" item while in contact with true ground. That is any item that is connected by CPC or bonds to the CPC.
Exactly. You are, presumably unwittingly, emphasising my point about the relative risks. Despite the fact that, as you say, the 'generally-accepted' risks I mentioned are in some senses 'visible', and certainly widely known about, they result in thousands of serious injuries and deaths each year. On the other hand, even though the risk is generally not visible, or known about by most people, we are actually debating whether there has ever been even one serious injury or death as a result of a PME neutral/CNE fault during the 50 (or whatever) years of PME. Westie seems to be saying that he's never heard of such a case.
The risk of electrical shock from a potential difference between a MET and true ground must have been perceived as significant as the use of "earthed" items in the garden is seen as hazardous resulting in the recommendation that all garden equipment is double insulated. Some items have the manufacturer's instruction that it MUST not be earthed.
We don't need to look any further than you to see that there are some people who perceive that risk as significant, but that says nothing about the magnitude of the risk in comparison with others. As above, we are not convinced that a PME neutral/CNE fault has ever resulted in a serious injury or death, whether indoors of outdoors. On the other hand, I think we can be pretty certain that the risk of serious injuries as a result of use of the garden equipment, per se, is far greater than the the risk due to electrical supply faults. Regulations and recommendations are, like you, very 'connservative'/cautious.

Kind Regards, John.
 
My reasons for considering changing to TT are specific to the situation of my Grade II listed cottage in which total exclusion of ground potential from the equipotential zone would require work on the walls that the conservation officer would have great difficulty in accepting.

If it were a normal house then while I do have concerns about PME at ground level I would accept those concerns would not warrant a change to TT from PME given the need to install and maintain an effective earth rod for a safe TT installation.
 
My reasons for considering changing to TT are specific to the situation of my Grade II listed cottage in which total exclusion of ground potential from the equipotential zone would require work on the walls that the conservation officer would have great difficulty in accepting.
I understand that, but my comments about the magnitude of the risk remain. The probability of the potential of your equipotential zone rising to a possibly hazardous level relative to true earth is small enough - and, even if it happened, (a) the probability of someone simultaneously touching a wall and an exposed conductive part at the right time would be low and (b) the probability of your getting a enough current due to such a PD flowing through damp walls to represent a serious threat would be extremely small. Multiply three very small probabilities together and you would be getting very close to the infamous 'vanishingly small' risk.

I would strongly suspect that no-one has ever suffered a serious or fatal injury as a result of a PME CNE fault and a path gto true earth through a masonry wall.

Kind Regards, John.
 

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