Using pre installed cooker circuit for 13amp or 16amp oven.

[JohnW2]

As there is absolutely no difference between an FCU and a socket and plug, it surely - for sale in the UK - should be supplied with a moulded plug on the flex if suitable.

I suspect that they can wriggle out of the requirement to fit a plug (for sale in UK) by saying that it "requires hardwiring"?

You will note that it states "Power supply" [not fuse]- 13A. (Requires hard wiring to a fused spur) - This must be written in the UK because of the incorrect use of 'fused spur'.

Indeed, but I suppose by saying that it requires a "13A Supply" and a "Fused Spur", this means that the "Fused Spur"/FCU has to ciontain a 13A fuse.

The other one states "Power supply" - 16A (Requires hardwiring to a dedicated circuit) - This appears to be the normal for appliances in Europe.

Indeed - which is why I offered the suggestions and asked the questions above. However, we now know that the model numbers of both include "UK", so presumably even the second one is intended for sale in the UK - which makes it even stranger.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Mark armitage]

As there is absolutely no difference between an FCU and a socket and plug, it surely - for sale in the UK - should be supplied with a moulded plug on the flex if suitable.

This from the first link above:

View attachment 234736

You will note that it states "Power supply" [not fuse]- 13A. (Requires hard wiring to a fused spur) -
This must be written in the UK because of the incorrect use of 'fused spur'.

The other one states "Power supply" - 16A (Requires hardwiring to a dedicated circuit) -
This appears to be the normal for appliances in Europe.

as they are both quoted at 3.3kW something is not right,

Yes very confusing both 3.3kw but saying to connect different ways.oven came with flex cable but not socket on it so was wondering would it be ok to hard wire straight into cooker connection plate and drop MCB to 16amp just wasn't sure the 1.5mm flex cable supplied would be ok in 16amp?

 

[JohnW2]

Yes very confusing both 3.3kw but saying to connect different ways.oven came with flex cable but not socket on it so was wondering would it be ok to hard wire straight into cooker connection plate and drop MCB to 16amp just wasn't sure the 1.5mm flex cable supplied would be ok in 16amp?

As I, and others, said before, 1.5mm² cable is OK for a current of around 16A (figures vary slightly according to source) - so would be OK.

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

I suspect that they can wriggle out of the requirement to fit a plug (for sale in UK) by saying that it "requires hardwiring"?

Then it should not be connected to an FCU.
Furthermore there are several ways it could be done so saying it must be hardwired to an FCU is just wrong; that it might damage an FCU makes the instructions even worse.

Indeed, but I suppose by saying that it requires a "13A Supply" and a "Fused Spur", this means that the "Fused Spur"/FCU has to ciontain a 13A fuse.

...but they do not say that.

Indeed - which is why I offered the suggestions and asked the questions above. However, we now know that the model numbers of both include "UK", so presumably even the second one is intended for sale in the UK - which makes it even stranger.

I think the second is correct and the first has been 'translated' into 'UK' by someone who does not know what they are doing.

If Mark changes the MCB to 16A, then all is well for even the most cautious amongst us.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Or, of course, leave the 32A MCB and change the flex to 4mm².

 

[JohnW2]

Then it should not be connected to an FCU. Furthermore there are several ways it could be done so saying it must be hardwired to an FCU is just wrong; that it might damage an FCU makes the instructions even worse.

I was merely saying that, by specifying (appropriately or not)_ that it had to be hard-wired, they way well have wriggled out of the legal requirement to supply the product with a fitted BS1363 plug when sold in the UK "if it is intended to be plugged in".

...but they do not say that.

Not literally but, as I said, they get extremely close. By saying that it requires a "13A Supply" and that it should be connected via a "Fused Spur", they are surely essentially saying that the "Fused Spur" should contain a 13A fuse, aren't they? How else can that be interpreted?

I think the second is correct and the first has been 'translated' into 'UK' by someone who does not know what they are doing.

That's roughly what I originally suggested but, as I said, even the second one bears a "UK" product number.

As for whether the second one (which calls for a "16A supply" is 'correct', that's probably a pretty marginal situation. Had the power been quoted as 3.25 kW (at 240V), rather than 3.3 kW, that would correspond to a current of 13A at 230V - and it might have been considered that the situation was close enough to that for a "13A supply" (hence "13A fuse") to be reasonable.

If Mark changes the MCB to 16A, then all is well for even the most cautious amongst us.

Or, of course, leave the 32A MCB and change the flex to 4mm².

Indeed so - although I suspect that you and I (and at least some others) would 'change nothing', and be comfortable with that decision/judgement.

As you imply, it's really only about that short piece of flex, not anything within the appliance. The silly thing is that if there were a hob 'in the same box' as the oven (i.e. it was a 'cooker'), presumably with a somewhat meatier flex, I don't think anyone would be worrying about instructions saying that it it required, say, a "32A supply", even though the innards of the oven part only had '32A {external} protection', would they?

Kind Regards, John

 

[SUNRAY]

it's really only about that short piece of flex, not anything within the appliance.
Kind Regards, John

Do we actually know that to be correct?

 

[JohnW2]

Do we actually know that to be correct?

Well, as I said, if there were a hob 'in the same box' as the oven (i.e. it was called 'a cooker'), with a single cable attached to it, and the spec said that it required a "32A supply", I doubt that anyone would be panicking because the innards of the 'oven part' of what was in the box was then only protected by a 32A OPD, so that only leaves its 'flex' - so I can but presume that the only concern when it is 'just the oven' can relate to whether it's flex is appropriate to the OPD (or vice versa).

Kind Regards, John

 

[SUNRAY]

Well, as I said, if there were a hob 'in the same box' as the oven (i.e. it was called 'a cooker'), with a single cable attached to it, and the spec said that it required a "32A supply", I doubt that anyone would be panicking because the innards of the 'oven part' of what was in the box was then only protected by a 32A OPD, so that only leaves its 'flex' - so I can but presume that the only concern when it is 'just the oven' can relate to whether it's flex is appropriate to the OPD (or vice versa).

Kind Regards, John

Although I basically agree with what you say, the product in question does not have the hob attached and is stated as requiring a 16A OCD. I know not why but the manufacturer has produced the product and made that a part of their documentation.

It may be due to something inside the product or it may be due to the size of their fitted supply cable and I for one am extremely happy with: 1) MI. and 2) current rating of that 1.5mm supply cable and 3) common sense and 4) pride in my work and safety record.

 

[JohnW2]

Although I basically agree with what you say, the product in question does not have the hob attached and is stated as requiring a 16A OCD. I know not why but the manufacturer has produced the product and made that a part of their documentation. .... It may be due to something inside the product or it may be due to the size of their fitted supply cable and I for one am extremely happy with: 1) MI. and 2) current rating of that 1.5mm supply cable and 3) common sense and 4) pride in my work and safety record.

We've really been over all that before. I understand, respect and have never criticised your view and approach, which could perhaps be described as a very 'strict and cautious' one. Personally, I would probably allow my view of (3) to supersede some aspects of (1) and (2), and as for (4) one of the aspects of my work in which I have pride is my ability to make reasonable judgements about individual situations.

Mind you, I suspect that even you would probably not 'strictly' follow the every word of the MI by finding a way of protecting the oven with a 16A fuse, would you?

Kind Regards, John

 

[AndyPRK]

Maybe the manufactures know that a 13a plug does not dissipate heat well.
Having insulated pins and a fuse.

where as an fcu is slightly better.

 

[Mark armitage]

Or, of course, leave the 32A MCB and change the flex to 4mm².

Thanks would this be the better option or would changing MCB to 16amp be better. I did have a look at 1.5mm amp ratings and some said has rating of 15amp is that true? If so just doubled checking it would it be ok on 16amp mcb

 

[JohnW2]

Maybe the manufactures know that a 13a plug does not dissipate heat well.

Given that one of their MIs calls for a "16A fuse", and say that one of their 3.3 kW ovens requires a "!3A Supply" and another 3.3 kW ones requires a "16A Supply", I am very hesitant to draw any conclusions about what they do (and do not) "know" and understand.

... Having insulated pins and a fuse. ... where as an fcu is slightly better.

Possibly, but I seem to recall that some people argue the opposite. With most overheated plugs I've seen, the problem appears to have been an imperfect connection between the fuse and its clip, not any issue of heat dissipation.

Kind Regards, John

 

[SUNRAY]

We've really been over all that before. I understand, respect and have never criticised your view and approach, which could perhaps be described as a very 'strict and cautious' one. Personally, I would probably allow my view of (3) to supersede some aspects of (1) and (2), and as for (4) one of the aspects of my work in which I have pride is my ability to make reasonable judgements about individual situations.

Mind you, I suspect that even you would probably not 'strictly' follow the every word of the MI by finding a way of protecting the oven with a 16A fuse, would you?

Kind Regards, John

No I'll happily disregard the fuse instruction in favour of an MCB/RCBO.

Maybe the manufactures know that a 13a plug does not dissipate heat well.
Having insulated pins and a fuse.

where as an fcu is slightly better.

Personally I've had to replace so many overheated 13A plugs, sockets and FCU's that I came to the conclusion they are not suitable for heavy loads, such as heating,which are likely be on for an extended period. I will not fit a FCU for an oven, wall heater etc.

 

[JohnW2]

Thanks would this be the better option or would changing MCB to 16amp be better. I did have a look at 1.5mm amp ratings and some said has rating of 15amp is that true? If so just doubled checking it would it be ok on 16amp mcb

If you really want to address this issue in a very 'strict' way, then there's probably nothing much to choose between changing the MCB and changing the cable.

I certainly don't think you should be concerned about the difference between 15A and 16A - you've already been told that there are slight differences between tabulated ratings, but the rating for 1.5mm² flex is definitely "about 15/16A".

Kind Regards, John