Volt Free Contacts

[JohnW2]

how about something like 'isolated' or 'independent'?

How about people finding out what "volt free" (or any other term which they know they don't know what it means) means rather than thinking it's OK to do circuit design on the basis of ignorant assumptions?

The problem with this particular one is that, to many people, the meaning of the phrase (in terms of everyday English) may appear so 'obvious' that, despite what you say, they won't even suspect that they are making an 'assumption'. ... We all know the meaning of 'sugar free', 'additive free', 'toxin free', 'lead free', 'gluten free', 'nut free' 'maintenance free', 'surcharge free', 'toll free', 'postage free' etc. etc. etc.- and if I threw an unfamilar 'X free' at members of the general public, most would automatically believe that they knew what it meant - so why should they think they're making an assumption when they believe that they know the meaning of "volt free"? If 'nut free' was used by food manufacturers to mean something other than 'the obvious', there would probably be deaths as a result. One has to wonder about "volt free".

It really doesn't matter how you try and spin it, every one of your "yes but it's confusing to the ignorant" simply reinforces the position that the ignorant should not fiddle.

Maybe, but that's getting very close to the only-too-common 'arrogance' (or 'protectionism') of so many trades and professions, which seemingly want to maintain mysticism and make it more difficult for 'outsiders' to understand their 'languiage'/jargon - in other words, they sometimes seem to want outsiders to remain 'ignorant' and hence erect obstacles to 'non-ignorance'. I don't condone that - do you?

The other issue here, of course, is that I'm quite sure that at least some electricians won't be familiar with the sense in which "volt free" is being used in this context - so it's not even just 'ignorant outsiders'.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

so why should they think they're making an assumption when they believe that they know the meaning of "volt free"?

It all starts with them making an assumption that it's perfectly OK to fiddle with things they don't understand. If you were to sit them down and force them to try and explain exactly what the external device did to the circuitry inside the boiler it would probably dawn on them that they didn't understand it.

That's the root of the problem, and no tinkering with terms like "volt free" will make any difference.

Anybody who had the necessary competence would know that if there was no voltage between the contacts when in use then no current would flow when the contacts were closed, and therefore there would be no difference between contacts open and contacts closed, and therefore there would be no point having the device in the circuit in the first place, and therefore whatever the term "volt free" means, it cannot possibly mean that there is no voltage at the contacts when in use.

If 'nut free' was used by food manufacturers to mean something other than 'the obvious', there would probably be deaths as a result. One has to wonder about "volt free".

No one does not.

One has to wonder about the stupidity of some people deciding that ignorance should not be a bar to them fiddling.

One also has to realise that there are no limits on how stupid some people can be, and just how f***witted their actions can be, and that we cannot dumb the entire world down to cater for the most f***witted of its inhabitants.

Maybe, but that's getting very close to the only-too-common 'arrogance' (or 'protectionism') of so many trades and professions, which seemingly want to maintain mysticism and make it more difficult for 'outsiders' to understand their 'languiage'/jargon - in other words, they sometimes seem to want outsiders to remain 'ignorant' and hence erect obstacles to 'non-ignorance'.

Nonsense.

The other issue here, of course, is that I'm quite sure that at least some electricians won't be familiar with the sense in which "volt free" is being used in this context

See above - in that case they lack the basic competence essential to their chosen field of work, and should pack it in and change to something they can cope with.

 

[bernardgreen]

One also has to realise that there are no limits on how stupid some people can be, and just how f***witted their actions can be, and that we cannot dumb the entire world down to cater for the most f***witted of its inhabitants.

TV and other mass media "entertainment" and news reporting is being dumbed down. Some say education is being ( has been ) dumbed down ( I agree ). So why not dumb down everything else to the level that the mass of the population can understand ? Then in a generation or two that level will be too high for the mass and a further dumbing down will have to happen. Rant ends.

The reality is that most people are un-aware of how ignorant they are, and being ignorant of their own ignorance is ignorance squared and that can very very dangerous.

The problem is do we prevent DIY work by the ignorant people by legislation or do we try to educate them to make them realise how ignorant ( un-informed ) they are and guide them to become fully aware of the dangers their ignorance of their own ignorance is creating for them.

 

[ricicle]

I cannot believe how far this post has gone. Do we need to dumb down all technical names in all walks of life so that people can 'fiddle'. What about one way, two way, two gang, ELV, LV, HV, induction, capacitance.
Should these all be dumbed down so the un-educated can understand ?
How about ABS, fuel injector, ECU for those wishing to 'fiddle' with their cars ?

The list goes on.........

 

[scousespark]

how about something like 'isolated' or 'independent'?

How about people finding out what "volt free" (or any other term which they know they don't know what it means) means rather than thinking it's OK to do circuit design on the basis of ignorant assumptions?

The problem with this particular one is that, to many people, the meaning of the phrase (in terms of everyday English) may appear so 'obvious' that, despite what you say, they won't even suspect that they are making an 'assumption'. ... We all know the meaning of 'sugar free', 'additive free', 'toxin free', 'lead free', 'gluten free', 'nut free' 'maintenance free', 'surcharge free', 'toll free', 'postage free' etc. etc. etc.- and if I threw an unfamilar 'X free' at members of the general public, most would automatically believe that they knew what it meant - so why should they think they're making an assumption when they believe that they know the meaning of "volt free"? If 'nut free' was used by food manufacturers to mean something other than 'the obvious', there would probably be deaths as a result. One has to wonder about "volt free".

It really doesn't matter how you try and spin it, every one of your "yes but it's confusing to the ignorant" simply reinforces the position that the ignorant should not fiddle.

Maybe, but that's getting very close to the only-too-common 'arrogance' (or 'protectionism') of so many trades and professions, which seemingly want to maintain mysticism and make it more difficult for 'outsiders' to understand their 'languiage'/jargon - in other words, they sometimes seem to want outsiders to remain 'ignorant' and hence erect obstacles to 'non-ignorance'. I don't condone that - do you?

The other issue here, of course, is that I'm quite sure that at least some electricians won't be familiar with the sense in which "volt free" is being used in this context - so it's not even just 'ignorant outsiders'.

Kind Regards, John

The list you quoted are all terms used in the general population. Every one of us eats, so nut free has an obvious meaning with no ambiguity.

You seem to have an issue with terminology, but there is no
'protectionism' as anybody can get access to information if they come across a term they don't understand. Volt Free is just one such term.

 

[JohnW2]

It all starts with them making an assumption that it's perfectly OK to fiddle with things they don't understand.

That seems to be your main point, and you're obviously free to write about it as much as you like. As far as the actual topic is concerned, I personally don't think it is wise to (unneccesarily) adopt terminology so "obvioulsy misunderstandable" by those you describe as 'the ignorant' in relation to a product on sale to the public. Nothing will stop me thinking that this unnecessarily introduces a danger.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

I cannot believe how far this post has gone. Do we need to dumb down all technical names in all walks of life so that people can 'fiddle'. What about one way, two way, two gang, ELV, LV, HV, induction, capacitance. ... Should these all be dumbed down so the un-educated can understand ?

I wouldn't calling it 'dumbing down' (it`s really `KISS`), but if you are asking whether, whenever possible, language/terminology should be adopted which was understandable to the maximum number of people (including the 'uneducated'), then my answer would be a resounding Yes!

The obvious counter question is "Why not?" - unless a desire, for whatever reason, to deliberately restrict the number of people who understandand/or create some sort of `educated elite`.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

You seem to have an issue with terminology, but there is no 'protectionism' as anybody can get access to information if they come across a term they don't understand. Volt Free is just one such term.

Yes, they can get access to it (as they can to the technical terminology/jargon of virtually any discipline) - but that, in itself, is not an excuse for adopting terminology which is (unnecessarily) not self-explanatory and/or potentially misleading to many. They can access material which explains in detail how to conduct brain surgery if they wish - we`re not talking about `secret`information. As I wrote to BAS, my specific worry about "Volt free" is that (by analogy with `nut free` etc.) many people (probably like the OP in this thread) have no reason to think that they don`t understand the meaning - which is a dangerous situation. BAS is essentially right that `the ignorant should not fiddle`, but they do! See also my recent response to ricicle.

Kind Regards, John

 

[scousespark]

Your analogy is spurious. The term 'nut-free' is used in supermarkets, which are frequented by the majority of us.

The term 'volt-free' in this thread is specific to a boiler. I don't know how many people decide to move their boilers, but the safety requirements go way beyond understanding what 'volt-free' means.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

As far as the actual topic is concerned, I personally don't think it is wise to (unneccesarily) adopt terminology so "obvioulsy misunderstandable" by those you describe as 'the ignorant' in relation to a product on sale to the public.

It is not unnecessarily obviously misunderstandable to anyone who is competent to be dealing with it.

It is precise, it is unambiguous, and it tells anyone who is competent to be dealing with it exactly what they need to know.

Nothing will stop me thinking that this unnecessarily introduces a danger.

It does not introduce a danger, necessarily or not, to anyone who is competent to be dealing with it.

And there is nothing, absolutely nothing, you or anyone can do with terminology which describes something which the incompetent and ignorant do not comprehend which would make it clear to them and suddenly make them competent and knowledgeable enough to deal with it.

There is no alternative way to describe the volt free contacts of a switch which would make any material difference to the ability of someone unable to grasp what "volt free" means to understand the concept. Remember, we need a practicably concise label to apply to the item, not a long drawn out explanation of how it works.

 

[JohnW2]

Your analogy is spurious. The term 'nut-free' is used in supermarkets, which are frequented by the majority of us.

Exactly - which (along with all the other examples) is the reason why 'the great majority of us' could surely be excused for believing that they know what "X free" means?

There is no reason why, in any field, techical terminology and jargon cannot remain consistent with everyday English - and, IMO, a good few reasons (some relating to safety) why it should. Nothing will change my feelings about that.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I wouldn't calling it 'dumbing down' (it`s really `KISS`), but if you are asking whether, whenever possible, language/terminology should be adopted which was understandable to the maximum number of people (including the 'uneducated'), then my answer would be a resounding Yes!

The obvious counter question is "Why not?" - unless a desire, for whatever reason, to deliberately restrict the number of people who understandand/or create some sort of `educated elite`.

You are completely missing the point.

The problem is not that "volt free" is misleading, the problem is one of people simply having no idea what it does.

You could change the label to "contact only", or "isolated continuity", or "rum and raisin" - it would make no difference whatsoever to the fact that the root cause of the inability of someone to implement a "volt free" switch properly is not an unnecessarily confusing label but is ignorance of how it works.

 

[JohnW2]

There is no alternative way to describe the volt free contacts of a switch which would make any material difference to the ability of someone unable to grasp what "volt free" means to understand the concept. Remember, we need a practicably concise label to apply to the item, not a long drawn out explanation of how it works.

"Isolated" ... or, if you would accept two more words for absolute clarity "not internally connected" - good, plain, clear English, understandable by any English-speaking person.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

You are completely missing the point. The problem is not that "volt free" is misleading ...

It was I who started this branch of the discussion and I can assure you that the potentially misleading terminology was precisely 'the point' (and the only point) I raised - so, regardless of what others may wish to discuss, I'm missing nothing.

... the problem is one of people simply having no idea what it does.

That does appear to be the (different) point you wish to discuss. Feel free - you may get some takers.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

"Isolated" ... or, if you would accept two more words for absolute clarity "not internally connected" - good, plain, clear English, understandable by any English-speaking person.

OK - please explain how in either case stevo would not have had to write either

Hi,

I have a boiler that has "isolated contacts" for the thermostat. I need to relocate it to another room and try not to disturb our decor...

Seen as they are isolated is it acceptable to use wire such as alarm cable and run it under carpets etc?

or does it still need twin and earth?

Thanks

or

Hi,

I have a boiler that has "not internally connected contacts" for the thermostat. I need to relocate it to another room and try not to disturb our decor...

Seen as they are not internally connected is it acceptable to use wire such as alarm cable and run it under carpets etc?

or does it still need twin and earth?

Thanks

and would instead have been fully clued up on what voltage was present at the terminals of his boiler and would therefore have known what cable he needed to use.