What is energy saving?

The government is cross subsidising energy costs to achieve its CO2 based energy saving targets. The concept is that anyone minimising their energy costs will play their part in energy saving that also meets CO2 targets.

The view that inefficient uses of electricity in the winter doesn't matter because the extra heat offsets the houses' heating demand is false. Those saying that filament lighting wasn't inefficient in winter are wrong. If they were right, you could leave the insulation off hot water cylinders and it wouldn't matter. It does matter because the heat ends up in the wrong places.

The message is simple: Whatever you do that keeps energy costs down will be saving energy.
 
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The view that inefficient uses of electricity in the winter doesn't matter because the extra heat offsets the houses' heating demand is false. Those saying that filament lighting wasn't inefficient in winter are wrong. If they were right, you could leave the insulation off hot water cylinders and it wouldn't matter. It does matter because the heat ends up in the wrong places.
I'm not sure I agree with all that. Sure, since people don't live in airing cupboards, a lot of the escaping heat from an uninsulated hot water cylinder could, indeed, end up 'in the wrong place' (a place one doesn't necessarily want to heat), and therefore probably not very efficient. On the other hand, however, lighting will nearly always be in places that one does need to heat - so heat generated by inefficient lighting will contribute usefully towards heating (in Winter), and won't be 'wasted'. It may, of course, be inefficient in cost terms, since electricity isn't usually the cheapest form of fuel used in a house.

The message is simple: Whatever you do that keeps energy costs down will be saving energy.
That's obviously not literally true. One way to 'keep energy costs down' is to make optimal use of the tarrifs on offer, without necessarily any reduction in energy usage. Another way is to increase the usage of cheaper types of fuel - again, without necessarily any reduction in energy usage.

Kind Regards, John.
 
I have noted to feel warm in the evening with Tungsten bulbs the thermostat needed to be set at around 18 degrees however after changing to discharge lighting CFU to feel warm the air temperature needs to be set higher to offset the loss of the radiated heat from the bulbs to around 20 degrees.
So I would guess that the losses must increase.

I raised this point with the energy saving trust and the answer was it depends on the number of air changes the premises has. So for example a garage with roller shutter doors which are opened and closed to bring in vehicles has loads of air changes so radiant heaters as best so air is not heated only the people. Same with something like a church where heat is only required for a short time.

But it seems no tests have been done in the home to combine the effects of all items. Be it a bathroom extractor, kitchen extractor, vented tumble drier or a fire drawing air from the room the amount of air changes in the normal house can vary that much that it is impossible to say if using CFU instead of Tungsten saves energy. Especially once energy used in manufacture is also counted. Add to that the problems in safe disposal of CFU it is by no means certain if there use is good or bad.

However the fact that I don't have to change a bulb every week and I also like the soft start when switching on I will continue to use CFU's also since central heating is gas so the fuel costs less I am sure it saves me money.

But as to saving energy I am not convinced.

In the same way as when I am one of two people on a bus (one being driver) can't see how I am reducing carbon emissions by travelling on the bus. Except if I did not use it the bus would still run, but that argument seems flawed some how?
 
Sure, since people don't live in airing cupboards, a lot of the escaping heat from an uninsulated hot water cylinder could, indeed, end up 'in the wrong place' (a place one doesn't necessarily want to heat)
Try keeping linen and towels folded up in an unheated cupboard in a bathroom and see if you'd end up wishing it had been heated.
 
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Incandescent lamps do throw out heat. They throw it out summer and winter, and most of it is concentrated on the ceiling. Since electricity costs about twice as much as gas, thjis is an expensive way of warming ceilings, even if that's what you want to do. Why you should want to warm your ceilings in summer, at considerable cost, I can't imagine.
 
Incandescent lamps do throw out heat. They throw it out summer and winter, and most of it is concentrated on the ceiling. Since electricity costs about twice as much as gas, thjis is an expensive way of warming ceilings, even if that's what you want to do. Why you should want to warm your ceilings in summer, at considerable cost, I can't imagine.
Those points have already been made. Everyone who has mentioned that heat from lights is not necessarily wasted have qualified that by 'in winter' and, as I keep having to remind people, eric's comments and questions were about energy saving/wasting not about cost saving/wasting. We all know that heating by electricity is usually much more expensive than by gas (I'm not sure about the relative costs of gas and electric lighting - but I haven't seen anyone suggesting that one :)).

Kind Regards, John.
 
Very true - but you are talking about potential cost saving, not energy saving. Cost saving matters directly and immediately to you and I, but energy saving matters more to the planet.

Kind Regards, John

to me they go hand in hand people that take the time to work out one part off the equation will automaticaly be aware off other parts off the equasion and there plan off action will be taken on all aspects off use cost and convenience as a compromise that they are happy with
 
to me they go hand in hand people that take the time to work out one part off the equation will automaticaly be aware off other parts off the equasion and there plan off action will be taken on all aspects off use cost and convenience as a compromise that they are happy with
Maybe for some people, but the two can theoretically be completely dissociated. As I've already illustrated, one can certainly save cost without saving energy. One can also save energy without saving cost if the more expensive fuel is more energy-efficient (but not cost-efficient) for a particular purpose - showering is probably a good example of that; an electric shower is more energy-efficient, but quite probably less cost-efficient, than one using gas-heated water.

Kind Regards, John.
 
The ultimate energy saving appliance must be the heat pump since it produces three times as much heat as the energy it uses. As a house heating system, the heat pump running cost is on a par with gas, but is not the first choice because the capital costs are greater than gas.

If the government wanted to promote energy saving instead of carbon saving, it would subsidise heat pumps at the expense of gas. We would be fitting uneconomic heat pumps like we fit uneconomic pv solar panels now.

Thank goodness the government is saving the planet by saving carbon and not by saving energy.
 
Incandescent lamps do throw out heat. They throw it out summer and winter, and most of it is concentrated on the ceiling. Since electricity costs about twice as much as gas, thjis is an expensive way of warming ceilings, even if that's what you want to do. Why you should want to warm your ceilings in summer, at considerable cost, I can't imagine.
I am sure we could return to these.
years ago in the caravan we used gas lights and I have never really worked out why they were not fitted as standard in the more modern caravan. Even better than the tungsten lamp for keeping warm.

We yes I do know some reasons. Broken mantles, as a result smashed diffuser glasses and caravan fires. Plus just like with tungsten lamps yellowed dirty areas around the fitting. But likely cheaper to use. At least with hook up charges of today.

But as already stated it's not money but energy which is the question. And even if tungsten lamps were used all year round since lights are used more in the winter than summer it would still be hard to prove that a compact florescent unit with it's mercury content and higher manufacturing energy and material costs can be more environmentally friendly then the simple tungsten bulb in many rooms of houses in the higher latitudes.

There are of course exceptions and for example in the kitchen we need to reduce as much as possible for most of the year the heat generated in this area. I noted a huge difference when we moved from the old ceramic hob of 1980's to new induction type where the heat goes directly into the pan.

Using a microwave pressure cooker really reduces cook times and also retains more flavour in the food to a conventional pan and uses less energy than even conventional pressure cookers. The thick plastic pan retains the heat rather than heating the room.

I have considered if one could make a tea cosy type of cover for pans to reduce the power required, as the demo with a bank note boiling water with it between the pan and induction ceramic hob shows how the temperature is much reduced, so a pan cosy would now be a viable option.

As we start to use heat recovery units like these
56776_P

then some of the advantages of using tungsten lamps will go and the compact florescent unit will start to really save energy as we require less and less energy to heat the house. But at £700 each without fitting it will take some time before we see these in even new houses never mind those already built.

My gas fire draws air from within the room, My tumble drier draws air from within the room which must be replaced for somewhere. Central heating has a balanced flue and since in the garage would not really matter if it was not a balanced flue. But those who remember the old open hearth coal fire will remember the drafts they caused.

I can't really see a problem with in October swapping CFU's for Tungsten then in April swapping them back.

The warmest room in my house is the computer room. If we put computers in every room we would not need any heating ;)
 
The ultimate energy saving appliance must be the heat pump since it produces three times as much heat as the energy it uses. As a house heating system, the heat pump running cost is on a par with gas, but is not the first choice because the capital costs are greater than gas. If the government wanted to promote energy saving instead of carbon saving, it would subsidise heat pumps at the expense of gas.
No argument with any of that.

Kind Regards, John.
 
The ultimate energy saving appliance must be the heat pump since it produces three times as much heat as the energy it uses. As a house heating system, the heat pump running cost is on a par with gas, but is not the first choice because the capital costs are greater than gas. If the government wanted to promote energy saving instead of carbon saving, it would subsidise heat pumps at the expense of gas.
No argument with any of that.

Kind Regards, John.
Yep heat pumps or heat recovery units are it seems the way to go.

However we used them in Algeria some air conditioners had a heating element others reversed the motor and then took heat from air outside and put it inside. In the Sahara they worked but nearer coast they just froze up solid.

For any heat pump to work it has to extract the heat some place where it can be replaced. Frozen earth is not a good conductor and so just when one needs the heat most they fail. The greater the area that the heat is extracted from the better and the lower the temperature differential the better. If outside is at -18C which can easy be the case with a heat pump as it's cooling down the outside and inside is +18C then it's trying to lift the temperature by 36 deg C which will cost twice as much as if the outside temperature is 0 deg C. This is all down to the installer and of course where they know it is going to be monitored they will get it right but as to private house use I have not enough trust in the installers to ever go down that route.
 
assuming you only need lights after sun down simply doesnt work
i live in a mid terraced victorian style georgian house [1907] windows often only get direct sunlight for less than an hour on dull day [sunny with clouds]
the lights are often on most off the day during mid summer
if people actually believe the heat output from very inneficient bulbs is not 90% going to waste i think they are fooling them selves as the saving are huge and the benefits are minimal from keeping the "normal bulbs
the simple fact is if you reduce you power consumption by 75 or 90% in my case the power saving of 90% 9p a kw far excedes the 3 or 4p per kw in heat output you loose with perhaps 50% off the losses going in heat so the actual gas required is half at 2p for 9p saved then iff we assume for half the year the power output off the lamps is wasted that = 1p for every 9 p saved
then if we assume we actually have to use cooling to diffuse the excess heat from the bulbs for say 1 month a year you are now saving in excess off 10p for every 1p
so simple maths show the saving
off course you have to factor in the cost off the bulbs with leds costing £5 to £15 you will not get your costs back for between 3 months and 9 months compared normal bulbs factor in the heat it will take around twice as long
if you are using compact fluros it will take around 3 times longer to get the same returns as you have a slight bit more heat output but a 2.5 times the running cost
 
i live in a mid terraced victorian style georgian house
I presume you meant a georgian style victorian house - unless there were some georgian builders with very good crystal balls :) Mind you ....

... it actually seems that it's a georgian style Edwardian house :)

Kind Regards, John.

i dont know my bwain is so frazzled with doing the maths that i probably live in a space ship on the planet spam peas and and ouzo :LOL: :LOL: ;)
 

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