When considering in or out:

[Himaginn]

You hope. Why haven't Brexit already started that then?

That makes no sense. Why would our comissioner try to negotiate for an exit before the referendum even takes place? The referendum is the instruction to begin negotiations; you can't pre-empt it.

Then "Vote Leave" could present us with their idea of what Brexit would look like, instead of a mishmash of ideas, depending on who's talking.
If it was the Norway model, I might decide to vote Brexit!
If it's the mishmash of daft ideas, as at present, I'm voting Remain!

Two years from when UK declares to EU it wants to leave. That's when the counter starts.

False, as I explained earlier. After preliminary negotiations to leave, which take as long as they need to, the timescale for formal negotiations is decided, and this doesn't have to be under article 50 (2 year rule).

You're incorrect. Once notice is given Article 50 kicks in. I say again, you're in no position to make informed judgments.
Yes it could be extended but it would require unanimous support of the other 27 countries.
No unanimity and we're kicked out!
Only Brexiters are suggesting we can take as long as it takes, or that we can start negotiations without Article 50 being invoked. Which takes me back to: "why haven't they already started so they can tell us more precisely what Brexit would look like?"

It goes on to describe the process of withdrawal. Once a country has formally declared that it wants to leave, it must then negotiate with the 27 other members – for up to two years – about the terms of departure.
Any severance terms would then have to be ratified both by the European council and the parliament in Strasbourg. “It will be difficult, because it has to go through the EU legislative process, with each state having its own political imperatives,” says Damian Chalmers, professor of European law at the London School of Economics.

The treaty states that the period for negotiation could be extended, with the unanimous support of all member states; without such an agreement, Britain would be unceremoniously ejected when the time was up.

David Cameron insists that if a referendum delivered a leave verdict, he would have little option but to kick off the formal, and potentially destabilising, process of extricating Britain from the European club.

But some advocates of Brexit argue that discussions with other member states could start informally, without Article 50 having to be invoked.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...-voted-to-leave-the-eu-what-would-happen-next

 

[Himaginn]

Pensioners, Tory voters and men

Just a blip, perhaps.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...pensioners-tory-voters-and-men-are-deserting/

I think we can all agree that with age comes wisdom. The older you are, in general, the more knowledge you have gained of how the world works. .... If I have to trust someone's judgement, I choose the wisdom of crowds. I choose age over youth...

... the young who are old enough to vote have been indoctrinated with EU propaganda almost their whole lives (even in school).

Maybe the pensioners are now realising that if the economy crashes even pensions will be affected, and certainly any savings/investments.
Already the financial market is responding to the polls.

 

[Himaginn]

Going back to the Crown Dependencies. If Brexit occurs, and they are dragged out with us, it will mean much more to the likes of Channel islands, Gibralter, etc.
Maybe the Chanel Islanders will vote to join France, Gibraltar will vote to join Spain, Isle of Man votes to join Eire. Scotland wins the next referendum, NI consider it...............

 

[vinty]

very worrying .....

in 19 October 2000

Wow, you scoured the internet, and you found somebody said something, sixteen years ago, that you don't like? And what's more, he had a foreign-sounding name?

really scraping the bottom of the barrel with your Project Fear of Foreigners. I see you've got the memo now.

Keep burrowing into your favourite Europhobe websites, won't you.

And be sure to selectively quote, so you can omit the paragraph that begins "However, it dropped an argument put forward three months ago by the advocate-general..."

It's wonderful that you can distort and fabricate to support your shabby argument by attempting to mislead the credulous.

Did you not know that numerous Presidents of the United States were slaveowners. And as you are a migrant to that country, we can safely assume that you support slavery, right? Furthermore, during WW2, your adopted country interned people of Japanese heritage in prison camps, so perhaps you support concentration camps.

Hitler was a vegetarian, does that mean all veggies are fascists.

 

[vinty]

Do we know that he subsequently changed his opinion?

Have you not read the source of your Europhobe story?

The fact that it started as an employee being dismissed doesn't alter the other facts.

It does however mean that you are wrong to pretend that there is some kind of treaty or law restricting the rights of the citizen to criticise the EU.

Can we expect a continuing stream of would-be frightening nonsense from the anti-EU campaigners as their desperation increases over the next few weeks? What else will you do to try to engender Fear of Foreigners?

There are to many foreigners in the UK already if Britain votes out things will get a lot better.

 

[Himaginn]

Hitler was a vegetarian, does that mean all veggies are fascists.

There are to many foreigners in the UK already if Britain votes out things will get a lot better.

You still on page 6?
You might have caught up by 23rd June.

 

[Gerrydelasel]

You're incorrect. Once notice is given Article 50 kicks in. I say again, you're in no position to make informed judgments.

"We do not necessarily have to use Article 50 - we may agree with the EU another path that is in both our interests."
http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/briefing_newdeal?utm_campaign=160219_c_news&utm

 

[Doggit]

All the Brexiters have to argue about is sovereignty. It's not a case of re-claiming it, it's a case of ditching economic success for a stupid idea that we can determine our own future. There won't be a future left for us to determine.

I'm sorry Himmy, but if you can look at Britain and suggest the leave campaign is ditching economic success, then you really don't have any idea of what's actually going on. The National debt has now reached 1.6 trillion pounds, and there is no way in hell that we can pay that off. Osborne hasn't even been able to balance last years budget, and is predicted to fail this year as well. The NHS has gone over budget, and needs a serious bail out, and I'm not going to bother going any further, and to make matter worse, the Government is happy to go along with selling off the stock exchange. If we were a business, we'd have been put into liquidation ages ago, but you seem to call this economic success. What you're actually arguing for, is to keep the status quo, because you're afraid of taking a step into the dark

The remain campaign keep frightening the public with all sorts of absurd scare stories, yet all the leave campaign does (apart from a couple of idiots) is say we'll survive and prosper if we leave.

Isn't it strange how the older generation, dependent on pensions, benefits, etc, want out. Whereas the younger generation dependent on working for their future want to remain.

You're comment suggests you're under 30, maybe under 25, other you'd realise that the older generation are still working, and not getting pensions and benefits. We're worried for our childrens future, because we have the experience to see where things are going. One day, you'll be part of the older generation, but hopefully you'll have survived the mess that you're naivety has created.

I suspect that people will vote to remain, because there's just too much fear being generated by the remain camp, but if by some chance people realise that they're being treated with contempt by the upper echelon, and we do vote to leave, nothing whatsoever will happen until Cameron has gone back to the EU to ask for a couple more pathetic consessions, and then demanded another referendum.

 

[Himaginn]

You're incorrect. Once notice is given Article 50 kicks in. I say again, you're in no position to make informed judgments.

"We do not necessarily have to use Article 50 - we may agree with the EU another path that is in both our interests."
http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/briefing_newdeal?utm_campaign=160219_c_news&utm

Cloud cuckoo land!

Like when Rhodesia (Zimabwe), Scotland were going UDI, we said, "That's fine old chap. Don't worry, come round, have a spot of lunch and a chat. We'll look after you, old bean. Tell you what, we'll give you a good deal, better than you had before, and we'll pay for lunch."

Why haven't Brexiters already scouted the lie of the land?
I'll tell you why. a) they haven't a clue, b) they'll scare us all off the idea, c) we'd soon realise that the other 27 countries don't want us to go, and will probably make life as difficult as possible. Who can blame them. We'd do exactly the same.

 

[Himaginn]

All the Brexiters have to argue about is sovereignty. It's not a case of re-claiming it, it's a case of ditching economic success for a stupid idea that we can determine our own future. There won't be a future left for us to determine.

I'm sorry Himmy, but if you can look at Britain and suggest the leave campaign is ditching economic success, then you really don't have any idea of what's actually going on. The National debt has now reached 1.6 trillion pounds, and there is no way in hell that we can pay that off.

The IFS seems to disagree with you.

The IFS said a vote to leave could result in a £20bn to £40bn hit to the public finances in 2019/20, if GDP was 2.1% to 3.5% lower over the period, as predicted by the National Institute of Economic and Social Research (NIESR).

Paul Johnson, IFS director and an author of the report, said: "Getting to budget balance from there, as the government desires, would require an additional year or two of austerity at current rates of spending cuts."

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36371700

Osborne hasn't even been able to balance last years budget, and is predicted to fail this year as well. The NHS has gone over budget, and needs a serious bail out,

And you think that Brexit will fix all these problems magically.

and I'm not going to bother going any further,

Doggit speak for "I've run out of ideas."

and to make matter worse, the Government is happy to go along with selling off the stock exchange.

Probably to Frankfurt in the case of Brexit. Otherwise, what's it got to do with the referendum? You thought you'd just cloud the issue a bit, muddy the waters?

If we were a business, we'd have been put into liquidation ages ago, but you seem to call this economic success.

As a country, not a business, we're rather successful now.

What you're actually arguing for, is to keep the status quo, because you're afraid of taking a step into the dark

NO! What I'm arguing for is for increased prosperity, instead of continued austerity, economic shock, risk to the future success of the country, risk to 3,000,000 jobs, risk to the success of the NHS which is dependent on migrant labour.

The remain campaign keep frightening the public with all sorts of absurd scare stories, yet all the leave campaign does (apart from a couple of idiots) is say we'll survive and prosper if we leave.

hence their concentration on Turkey et al joining the EU, and their switch to concentrating on immigration.
If they think we can control immigration after Brexit, why haven't we controlled non-EU immigration so far? Is there a magic switch somewhere that Brexit will uncover?

Isn't it strange how the older generation, dependent on pensions, benefits, etc, want out. Whereas the younger generation dependent on working for their future want to remain.

You're comment suggests you're under 30, maybe under 25,

other you'd realise that the older generation are still working, and not getting pensions and benefits. We're worried for our childrens future, because we have the experience to see where things are going.

Me too, buddy, me too.

One day, you'll be part of the older generation,

I suspect that people will vote to remain, because there's just too much fear being generated by the remain camp, but if by some chance people realise that they're being treated with contempt by the upper echelon, and we do vote to leave, nothing whatsoever will happen until Cameron has gone back to the EU to ask for a couple more pathetic consessions, and then demanded another referendum.

Conspiracy theories abound.

 

[Gerrydelasel]

we'd soon realise that the other 27 countries don't want us to go, and will probably make life as difficult as possible. Who can blame them. We'd do exactly the same.

You Remainers have nothing good to say about Brexit, but you have nothing good to say about the EU either! You describe them yourself as protectionist, belligerent, obstructive and/or incompetent, yet you want us to remain one of them! If the PM honestly believed Brexit meant world war 3 and a grapes-of-wrath recession he would never have called a referendum in the first place (it may have been in their manifesto, but since when did a party ever feel compelled to fulfill its manifesto?) which only proves the Remain side is full of it.

Brexiter's have scouted the lie of the land. They've told us a hundred time what it would look like outside the EU (basically a cross between all the existing non-EU nations) but even when our own MEPs tell you this, you dismiss them automatically as cuckooo land, crackpots, unable to make informed judgement, as if you posess aloof, secret knowledge that the people who actually work in Brussels don't have. Meanwhile you treat everyone on the Remain as luminary, especially the one's who already profit from Brussels grants, bail outs, or are controlled by Remain-side ministers...

 

[Gerrydelasel]

I said:

That's a Remainer's tactic -to point to someone else's deal as if we would have to adopt it word for word, then say "but unlike the UK the Swiss don't even have fisheries so that model would never work! Haha I win!"

I suggested Guernsey as a model. Himaggin's reaction:

Guernsey acceded to EU as a Crown dependency, as did Gibraltar, etc. The situation is not yet clear how Crown dependencies will be affected haha I win!

 

[Himaginn]

we'd soon realise that the other 27 countries don't want us to go, and will probably make life as difficult as possible. Who can blame them. We'd do exactly the same.

You Remainers have nothing good to say about Brexit, but you have nothing good to say about the EU either! You describe them yourself as protectionist, belligerent, obstructive and/or incompetent, yet you want us to remain one of them!

It's normal behaviour. We'd do exactly the same.
You think countries are charities? Business behave exactly the same. Individuals behave exactly the same.

If the PM honestly believed Brexit meant world war 3 and a grapes-of-wrath recession he would never have called a referendum in the first place (it may have been in their manifesto, but since when did a party ever feel compelled to fulfill its manifesto?) which only proves the Remain side is full of it.

Exaggeration works for you does it? Helps you to make an unsupportable accusation palatable?

Brexiter's have scouted the lie of the land.

They went to the I of W, and they said, "it's all clear. There's no enemy in sight."

They've told us a hundred time what it would look like outside the EU

Execpt they've forgotten to ask those with whom they will have to negotiate! They've more or less said, "It's gonna be like this , 'cos that's how we want it to be!"

(basically a cross between all the existing non-EU nations) but even when our own MEPs tell you this, you dismiss them automatically as cuckooo land, crackpots, unable to make informed judgement, as if you posess aloof, secret knowledge that the people who actually work in Brussels don't have.

Exaggeration works for you, does it?
What I've said, is, "there's no point in leaving if we're going to be worse off afterwards!" The, non-EU countries that are in EFTA have to accept Schengen! They have to pay, they have to accept all regulation, they have no say in that regulation. Do you understand?

 

[tony1851]

This mornings' papers have an item about Greece's umpteenth bail out. Compared with last summers' brinksmanship,
this time the 'deal' - in which the EU has thrown more money down this bottomless pit basket case - has almost slipped quietly under the radar, with hardly any fuss?
One wonders why????

 

[Gerrydelasel]

You think countries are charities? Business behave exactly the same. Individuals behave exactly the same.

Wrong. Businesses are governed by the almighty dollar. The free market works so well because it forces businesses to cooperate. Bickering and inefficiency mean loss of profits. Individuals and political bodies can be petty, hold grudges, do things 'just to make a point', but all that falls apart as soon as money is involved. That's why negotiating a trade deal would not be difficult, because ministers will always be beholden to big business who want to continue trading thank you very much. We're near as dammit the EU's biggest customer. To paraphrase, capitalism would never permit the EU to give us a poor Brexit deal.

The, non-EU countries that are in EFTA have to accept Schengen! They have to pay, they have to accept all regulation, they have no say in that regulation. Do you understand?

As I've said before, they do have a say in those regulations: at the proposal stage (capitalism at work), they just don't vote on them. And in the top-down, undemocratic heirachy of the EU it's the proposal stage that really counts.

Exaggeration works for you, does it?

As well is it does for Project Fear.