Wiring a Cooker point

[Extrasolar]

Well I don't like the rewirable fuses that's why had a consumer unit installed with breakers with an rcd side.

To clarify then, I can use my 10mm2 cable with a 32A or 40A breaker?

 

[paulh53]

This was one of the main reasons why BS3036 fuses were outlawed from being installed a number of years ago.

BS 3036 (Rewirable) Fuses Are Not "Outlawed"

Whilst it may not be "illegal" to have rewirable fuses,

I Thought "Outlawed" Meant "Illegal

This Is Not "Utter Rubbish" But a Fact Of Industry (Depending On The Industry)
And Check Insurance Policies For That Industry,

You May Be Wise......But You Don't Know It All?

 

[Big_Spark]

I Thought "Outlawed" Meant "Illegal

This Is Not "Utter Rubbish" But a Fact Of Industry (Depending On The Industry)
And Check Insurance Policies For That Industry,

You May Be Wise......But You Don't Know It All?

OK so outlawed was a bad choice of adjective.

However it is UTTER RUBBISH, and I could present you with bucket load of IEE members who would agree, not to mention 100's of sparks I know and several Engineers in the Building Services Industry.

I have been in this Industry over 20 years, I have worked on the tools, as a Project Manager, a consultant Project Engineer for an International Company of Consultants and I am currently Director of an Electrical Contractors, so forgive me if I seem a bit arrogant if I am strongly opinionated about something I KNOW to be a fact.

Shopuld you doubt this, I suggest you telephone the IEE tomorrow and ask the Technical Services Engineers their opinion on this matter.

They can be contacted on 020 7240 1871

 

[Big_Spark]

OK, I have shot my mouth off, now lets have some cold hard facts on this courtesy of the IEE.

Regulation 433-02-01 (iii)

the current (I2) causing the effective operation of the protective device does not exceed 1.45 times the lowest of the current carrying capacities (Iz) of any of the conductors in the circuit

Now, as we know the fusing factor of rewirable fuses makes this almost impossible(but not quite) you are likely to be in breach of this regulation if you install BS3036 fuses, however to clarify or muddify (take your pick on perspective), we have

Regulation 433-02-03

Where the protective device is a semi-enclosed rewirable fuse to BS3036 compliance with condition (iii) is afforded only if it's nominal current (In) does not exceed 0.725 times the current carrying capacity (Iz) of the lowest rated conductor in the circuit provided.

Now I know that you may be able to argue that this does not expressly forbid the use of BS3036 fuses, but if you do the maths on the circuits, the chances of a circuit being in compliance are very remote.

As I understand it, the IEE fell short of an outright ban, as they did with FVOD's in 1985, due to the large number that would exist for many years in domestic premises and in certain older semi-industrial locations.

The commercial (inc Industrial) installations would be brought into compliance as their systems became updated over the years. This can be forced upon commercial organisations by the requirement for current NICEIC Periodic Test and Inspection Certs by their Insurers, compliance with the Electricity at Work Act 1989, The Building Regululations Act 1984 and also local authority requirements. Easier to pray for than achieve in practice though.

However the NICEIC, despite their best efforts, do not have the authority to force private property owners to have this type of inspection regime or to carry out remedial works.

It is this that has forced the fudge upon the industry, however, designing a circuit that is in full compliance with the regulations, but still using BS3036 fuses would be expensive in the extreme and pointless as better systems of protection are available and these do not require the design of uneccessarally expensive installations to comply with the regulations.

 

[paulh53]

Have You Ever Had 50 People Hanging Upside Down On a "Suspended Looping Roller Coaster" For Over One Hour Because a "Cartridge Fuse" Got "Tired" And Gave Up Because It Was Closely Rated To Protect The Motors?
The People On The Roller Coaster Put In Their "Insurance Claims", Which Far Outweighed The Prices Between The "Rewireable" & "Cartridge" Fuses,

It Take's a True "Engineer" To Know These Facts,
Not One Who "Thinks" He Is"?

PS... I've Been In The Trade For Over 35 Years

 

[paulh53]

OK, I have shot my mouth off, now lets have some cold hard facts on this courtesy of the IEE.

Regulation 433-02-01 (iii)

the current (I2) causing the effective operation of the protective device does not exceed 1.45 times the lowest of the current carrying capacities (Iz) of any of the conductors in the circuit

Now, as we know the fusing factor of rewirable fuses makes this almost impossible(but not quite) you are likely to be in breach of this regulation if you install BS3036 fuses, however to clarify or muddify (take your pick on perspective), we have

Regulation 433-02-03

Where the protective device is a semi-enclosed rewirable fuse to BS3036 compliance with condition (iii) is afforded only if it's nominal current (In) does not exceed 0.725 times the current carrying capacity (Iz) of the lowest rated conductor in the circuit provided.

Now I know that you may be able to argue that this does not expressly forbid the use of BS3036 fuses, but if you do the maths on the circuits, the chances of a circuit being in compliance are very remote.

As I understand it, the IEE fell short of an outright ban, as they did with FVOD's in 1985, due to the large number that would exist for many years in domestic premises and in certain older semi-industrial locations.

The commercial (inc Industrial) installations would be brought into compliance as their systems became updated over the years. This can be forced upon commercial organisations by the requirement for current NICEIC Periodic Test and Inspection Certs by their Insurers, compliance with the Electricity at Work Act 1989, The Building Regululations Act 1984 and also local authority requirements. Easier to pray for than achieve in practice though.

However the NICEIC, despite their best efforts, do not have the authority to force private property owners to have this type of inspection regime or to carry out remedial works.

It is this that has forced the fudge upon the industry, however, designing a circuit that is in full compliance with the regulations, but still using BS3036 fuses would be expensive in the extreme and pointless as better systems of protection are available and these do not require the design of uneccessarally expensive installations to comply with the regulations.

Regulations (100)
Insurance Comanys( 1000)

 

[Big_Spark]

Have You Ever Had 50 People Hanging Upside Down On a "Suspended Looping Roller Coaster" For Over One Hour Because a "Cartridge Fuse" Got "Tired" And Gave Up Because It Was Closely Rated To Protect The Motors?
The People On The Roller Coaster Put In Their "Insurance Claims", Which Far Outweighed The Prices Between The "Rewireable" & "Cartridge" Fuses,

It Take's a True "Engineer" To Know These Facts,
Not One Who "Thinks" He Is"?

PS... I've Been In The Trade For Over 35 Years

I see cheap insults are back in vogue tonight.

If you were a TRUE engineer as you put it, then you would install devices that meet the requirements of the circuit which they protect. Have you never heard of Motor rated MCB's or MCCB's? And what is wrong with HRC BS88's or 1361's??

I have installed, and install such devices on motors FAR larger and FAR more important (unless your stuck on the rollercoaster ) than fair ground motors.

We are currently installing control equipment for two new fire pumps for one client, these pumps are rated as 168kW each, and they start UNDER FULL LOAD when the sprinkler system is activated, these are protected by HRC BS88's as the primary protection on both the Mains and Generator side.

Please do not tell me these should be rewirable fuses, I could not take that much laughter in one lifetime.

Further, the situation you speak of IS NOT a persons house.

 

[breezer]

Further, the situation you speak of IS NOT a persons house.

by that, should i take it these "sprinkler pumps" ARE going in someones house? (big house)

 

[paulh53]

I Have Never Known a "Cartridge Fuse" Or MCB To Take The Hammer That a Rewirable Fuse Can Take (Under Controlled Circumstances),

I Will "Call It a Day On This Issue" (For Now?)

 

[paulh53]

I have installed, and install such devices on motors FAR larger and FAR more important (unless your stuck on the rollercoaster ) than fair ground motors

250kw Ramp Motors,

 

[Big_Spark]

Further, the situation you speak of IS NOT a persons house.

by that, should i take it these "sprinkler pumps" ARE going in someones house? (big house)

Not quite Breezer...your right, it would be a very big house if it was the case

 

[Extrasolar]

Well I don't like the rewirable fuses that's why had a consumer unit installed with breakers with an rcd side.

Cooker = MAX 11.5kW

To clarify then, I use 10mm2 cable with a 32A or 40A breaker? (Assuming that the current fuse is actually 30A)

I'm sure this is interesting to all you qualified, experienced engineers but it seems to have strayed a little off the subject. Would someone please be kind enough answer my question? Thanks.

 

[breezer]

depending on length of cable run, yes, what is going on the other end? a shower?

 

[Extrasolar]

It's a cooker. It states that it has a Max consumption of 11.5kW.

 

[Big_Spark]

I would put 10mm Cable in and back it up with a 40 or 45A MCB.

In reality you may not get near to using the full 50A potential load, the chances of having everything on full power at once is slim, but you may have 90% of the cookers potential on the go at one time or another.