Wood floor erupted like Vesuvius! Advice needed...

[Andwarr]

We chose the wood - the short lengths you can see are the offcuts from the living room area which had already been laid when this photo was taken.

 

[WFRN]

Sorry about the long post but there is alot to say here.
British Standards are voluntary. There is no legal duty to follow them unless the manufacturer states an installer must. Plus there is no reason to test an existing concrete floor if more than a year old if a DPM is used. An installer can use another test method other than a hygrometer if the manufacturer says he can. British Standards provide no legal protection so don't bother going there!

By the way Matty your knowledge of subfloor testing with a hygrometer is wrong. Reaching equilibrium can take alot longer than 24 hours and requires a number of readings.

looking at the pictures I see the floor is installed in kitchen/dining area. Have you checked all your appliances or pipes for leaks. Was there any new plumbing done? I have seen lots of insurance claims where leaks of fridges, washing machines or plumbing have caused the same problem (a volcano in the middle of the floor). The problem is, wood is moisture sensitive and often reacts first (resulting in wood installer always being called first), when the real cause is a leak in pipes or appliances. The cause of moisture may be no where near the lifting boards so check everywhere. To find the cause first eliminate all the obvious causes before jumping on the installer for negligence. If it is a leak your house insurance will cover it. Try to remain friendly with the installer, if they have been in business for a while they will want to help. If you threaten court action straight and you refuse them a proper inspection by the installer you will not be in a strong position later.

My advice is avoid court action if you can this is stressful and unless you have a strong case you will be wasting your time and money.

Now for the really bad news, there is no wood flooring experts in the UK I would recommend to inspect your floor. Go to the National Wood Flooring Association, this is the biggest wood flooring association in the world and you can find free info on their site.

If you think this is poor advice. I spent the last 3 years investigating wood flooring experts (inspectors) in the UK for the industry. I can name only one expert in the entire UK that has ever installed a wood floor professionally and sadly he only works for a specific wood floor company.

 

[mattysupra]

who is the person you speak about or what company does he work for?

 

[Andwarr]

Thanks for you detailed response, I appreciate your advice, as I do all those who have been helping in my plight.

My distrust of the installer was based around his strong reluctance to answer my calls and his evasive manner on his initial inspection.

He has now pulled up a few boards, and at the moment seems intent on helping. We found a lot of moisture, including some small pools of standing water in the craters of residual glue - a lot of glue - the glue was still wet as a result. To clarify, not big pools of water at all, but enough to wet the tip of my finger when prodded.

Initially there was no dpm applied to the concrete or tiles as preparation for the flooring, and I think that is why the installer is now being more helpful; he said he didn't realise the floor was concrete, and thought it was floorboards (The actual installer in my case was one of his staff). I am assuming that for a professional to fail to apply any kind of dpm over concrete and old tiles is an act of neglegence in the first place? On that basis (fingers crossed) the installer is now looking to rectify the problem.

I'll certainly double check for leaks, although I am confident there are none. Would you guys say, in your professional opinions, that this amount of moisture could have been caused by a lack of dpm? As I previously mentioned, there is a good chance that the concrete floor is recent, as I purchased a newly renovated house.

Thanks again.

 

[mattysupra]

It could be your problem but without seeing the problem myself its hard to say.I have seen big build ups of moister under floors before but could be a couple of things. Unless you take a moister reading or locate a leak its hard to say. Anyway to put things straight here . I have told you the basics on testing and rules a good professional should follow. As its a diy forum i try not to get to tech on what i write as it will confuse you all. As WFRN as said with hygrometer testing, well i should of said its a minimum of 24hrs test or at least british standard states. Also yes its up to the fitter weather he follows these guide lines. But if you did go to a small claims court etc they will refer to our bs and manufacturers instructions. And yes you should do more than one test but all we trying to find out is if they did a test at all! If someone was asking "how do i take a moister test of a subfloor" i would go into alot more detail. maybe it is a leak? If you read my post i say it could be a leak. Also i wasn't stating take them to court. If they dont want to find the problem with the failed floor and the person in question is left looking at a destroyed floor then he can go to the nicf website and they will advice them of who to speak to and where to go.As for manufactures instructions- well if they have any thing to do with sales to the u.k they will or at least 90 % of them will advice you to work to our standard. If your importing the product yourself from china, usa or where ever then the rules you follow may be Slightly different but all come down to the same sort of thing. Hence i said that if they test the floor with something else i maybe be able to translate there reading telling you if it wrong or wright. And you should test ever floor you work with! It may have a dpm but how do you know it has not been damaged? And what if its power floated ? These can take years to dry! Can you see where im coming from wfrn? All these guys need is the basic rules we should follow. And im still interested in the i.d of this guy who works for wood flooring company you talked about. Seems a top bloke to know.

 

[joe-90]

I don't like your chances going legal. The guy was paid to put the floor on YOUR subfloor. If it's faulty that isn't his fault. If you paid him to lay a DPM then it would be different; it's no good saying what a good contractor would do.

 

[mattysupra]

fair enougth on that one joe. See where your coming from. The biggest problem is we have not seen install instructions on this one. So we dont know what the manufacturer states for the floor prep. The one thing i do know is that it will be rare for any manufacturer to say o.k lay on that base without some sort of prep work. And as a professional installer if it did go to court wether or not the consumer signed a disclaimer against the floor prep it wont stand up in court as he is meant to be professional and went ahead fitting the flooring Anyway there is no reason why anyone should go to court here. As long as things get sorted out.

 

[WoodYouLike]

I don't like your chances going legal. The guy was paid to put the floor on YOUR subfloor. If it's faulty that isn't his fault. If you paid him to lay a DPM then it would be different; it's no good saying what a good contractor would do.

Not quite true joe.
Part of a professional fitter's job is to make sure that the conditions to fit a floor are correct. If not, a professional fitter won't fit the floor until problems are corrected. If he does go ahead he is liable for effect caused by his dicision to go ahead on a not suitable under floor.
You have product liablilty but always with installation work service (fitting is a service) liability

 

[Andwarr]

Thanks guys, I feel better armed now.

Like I said, I think the guy may well be willing to put things right, but I don't want to leave myself open to any BS should he take that route.

Many thanks. Hope I can help you guys in the future.

 

[Softus]

I don't like your chances going legal. The guy was paid to put the floor on YOUR subfloor. If it's faulty that isn't his fault.

Outstandingly wrong information - you surpass yourself joe-90.

Under the provisions of the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982, a supplier of a service is required to carry out that service with reasonable care and skill (and, unless agreed to the contrary, within a reasonable time and make no more than a reasonable charge).

If you paid him to lay a DPM then it would be different; it's no good saying what a good contractor would do.

Er, yes it is; that's exactly what's important.

For this law not to apply in your circumstances, Andwarr, you would have had to instruct the flooring company to ignore the state of the substrate and take responsibility yourself for any defect caused by it.

This isn't to say that you should go to court Andwarr - just have your eyes open if you're considering it.

 

[WFRN]

How much water are we talking about, if you can visually see it I think you may have a leak. Subfloor dampness is usually only visiable by colour of a damp screed in new construction. You should not have pools of water standing on the surface. If you do I suggest before you carry out any remedial work try to get a plumber in ASAP just to have peace of mind.

What adhesive was used? Is this water based, as this may be the problem and the cause of your floor expanding and lifting.

You have alot of issues that need to be fully investigated and as you can probably see by the number of replies there are lots of different things that need to be considered.

Good to hear the installer is willing to help, I understand you as a consumer want the product you paid for, and as a matter of pride I am sure the installer wants to assist you. I wish you luck.

 

[Andwarr]

Re: the possibility of a leak... the standing water is very minimal... it resembles the gathering of condesation on a window rather than pools of water. It is only present where the glue has formed ridges which hold it in like a bowl. There's enough to wet the tip of a finger.

The only possible sources of a leak would be 1. The sink piping, which I can confirm are dry at the base as there is no wood flooring covering where the pipe joins the floor, 2. The patio doors (visible from the photo I posted) but this seems unlikely - there's a gutter on the exterior at ground level, so can't see how water would get in. Also, it seems perfectly dry around the seal. 3. The boiler (a megaflow) which was serviced 4 weeks ago by a good pro, and seems dry at all the points of pipe entering the floor.

Other than some strange and unlikely under floor piping that might possibly exist that's all it could be. I guess there's a remote possibility of old pipes under ground as the original kitchen (at time of building) would have been where the moisture is - but seems very unlikely indeed. Also, the floor was completely dry to touch when we took up the laminate that was there before, so an old leak would most likely have been visible then.
I guess we'll find out when the floor comes up.

Not sure what glue was used, no containers were left behind.

 

[flooringman]

mattysupra

For your peace of mind I think the person that WFRN was referring to has the initials S.B. and writes a column in the CFJ magazine. Top bloke.

 

[joe-90]

I don't like your chances going legal. The guy was paid to put the floor on YOUR subfloor. If it's faulty that isn't his fault.

Outstandingly wrong information - you surpass yourself joe-90.

Under the provisions of the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982, a supplier of a service is required to carry out that service with reasonable care and skill (and, unless agreed to the contrary, within a reasonable time and make no more than a reasonable charge).

If you paid him to lay a DPM then it would be different; it's no good saying what a good contractor would do.

Er, yes it is; that's exactly what's important.

For this law not to apply in your circumstances, Andwarr, you would have had to instruct the flooring company to ignore the state of the substrate and take responsibility yourself for any defect caused by it.

This isn't to say that you should go to court Andwarr - just have your eyes open if you're considering it.

Don't talk silly, Softus. The contractor does as instructed. Going legal would be a waste of money. If I were to ask a painter to paint my tatty windows - he'd paint them. If I instructed a a brickie to build on my foundations he'd build on them. If I ask a guy to lay flooring on my floor he'd lay it. Simple innit?

 

[mattysupra]

flooring man. guess you know who i am then?