Work not to regs? (by NICEIC member)

[SimonH2]

A JB, assumed not to be MF, buried behind the wall and extending multiple circuits to the new CU location.

 

[sparkwright]

So we have no proof as to whether there are maintenance free 'Wago' type connectors in there - bit odd the electrician has admitted an oversight here when I imagine no one is going to make a big hole in the wall to prove it.

Seems like a switch fuse in place of the isolator in the meter cupboard will solve the main problem(s).

 

[SimonH2]

But Wagos, and I assume others, are only classed as MF when installed according to the MIs. And the MIs specify the use of their own boxes.
So some random plastic box of Wagos, or similar, doesn't count.

 

[sparkwright]

I would say to not use approved maintenance free connectors in otherwise suitable enclosure which is not actually specified by the connector manufacturer is bordering on the ridiculous.

If that is the case, that would mean the maintenance free connectors folk may use within a light switch, say for the neutrals, would be completely incorrect.

I think common sense has to overrule some daft manufacturers instructions.

 

[Fwad]

I would say to not use approved maintenance free connectors in otherwise suitable enclosure which is not actually specified by the connector manufacturer is bordering on the ridiculous.

If that is the case, that would mean the maintenance free connectors folk may use within a light switch, say for the neutrals, would be completely incorrect.

I think common sense has to overrule some daft manufacturers instructions.

Using MF connectors in a light switch is fine because the light switch doesn't need to be maintenance free - i.e. you're using a wago in there because it's quicker / small / neater but not because of the maintenance free function.

I assumed the point of a MF box was to put the MF connectors (which in theory shouldn't work lose) into a box which won't pop open by mistake. Hence on the wago connectorbox things you are supposed to put the cable tie round it when done and it only counts as MF if you do. They are also made of a slightly bendy plastic so if hit with something shouldn't crack or shatter. When you put these into a different box then it might not have these same features / properties. I'm not saying this is a great argument - but I can see why it might be made.

On the other hand I've see MF connectors made a few months ago pull out because they weren't inserted correctly and screw terminals junction boxes buried > 50 years ago still as tight as the day they were fitted

 

[winston1]

But Wagos, and I assume others, are only classed as MF when installed according to the MIs. And the MIs specify the use of their own boxes.
So some random plastic box of Wagos, or similar, doesn't count.

This just protecting their own interests. If Wagos are MF they are MF whatever box they are in surely.

 

[sparkwright]

This just protecting their own interests. If Wagos are MF they are MF whatever box they are in surely.

You would certainly think so.

I suppose one should make sure that the cables can't easily be pulled from the box - but not usually a problem in an inaccessible place.

 

[RF Lighting]

This just protecting their own interests. If Wagos are MF they are MF whatever box they are in surely.

That would not be compliant with BS 7671

 

[plugwash]

If Wagos are MF they are MF whatever box they are in surely.

AIUI the definition of "MF" referenced by BS7671 is a standard for accessories not terminals. So terminals by themselves can't be "MF". It's the complete assembly that needs to be approved.

The wagobox series are not actually wago products! (I would assume they have some agreement with wago though to let them use the name). They are made by a company called connexbox who claim that some (not all!) of their boxes used in conjunction with the approved wago terminals slotted into the supports in their boxes (with adapter plates if needed depending on the box/terminal) combination are MF.

Ideal think that it's ok for their terminals to float loose in their boxes.

All the other makers of MF junction boxes i'm aware of are making boxes with fixed terminals.

 

[Skyhigh]

So, latest update from NICEIC - it's taken some time to get responses!

Thanks again for your help and advice - it's helped a lot!



Tails Length
We're putting in a mechanical switch to protect against overcurrent, in the meter cupboard (as you gents recommended, of course!)


Tails Location / Protection
They proposed to take out the plaster where the cable goes over the pier and fit a metal plate. But this would only really protect the tails when they're just under the plaster.
(OK, sure, they're probably 3 inches below the plaster on the rest of the wall - but they're in prime "picture hanging" space, and I don't like the thought of someone in the future hitting one of them with a drill).

So, we're running the feed using SWA along the outside of the house instead - from the meter to the consumer. (it's lucky this room is a converted garage that allows for that solutions)


Junction Box - Accessibility
NICEIC tried to claim it would be a contractual dispute as the walls were put up after the installation work.
I pointed out to one of their consultants that the electricians work wasn't just to move the consumer - it was running new sockets, cat6, lights, etc - and they came back during the stud going up, and after plastering, to complete their work. It was all the same work - and they were clearly aware that the junction box would be covered up. So it's an oversight by them.
Consultant agreed.
But now NICEIC are trying to claim contractual dispute again (i.e. not their problem).
Meh.


Consumer Not Tested
Consumer wasn't tested when moved. NICEIC are claiming that it's "too long ago" and they cannot "prove or disprove pre-existing circuits were tested".
Well, they're not listed on the test certificate, are they? Electrician also admitted that they 'overlooked' adding the CU move to their worksheet and the CU testing! Awaiting their response....


External Sockets - Not Earthed Correctly
This popped up along the way. External sockets on the property fed by SWA from the CU.
Their expert had concerns that was the Junction Box was plastic - so they can't gland it there. And the pictures show the SWA doesn't go back to the CU to be earthed there either.
Electrician is going to check if sockets are earthed externally - at the sockets - using a brass banjo +/ flying earth lead.



Getting there - slowly.

Still not overly keen on having the cowboys back to 'fix' the work to be frank as they're messing about somewhat.


I'm in two minds about simply getting someone else in to do the work - and do some extra work too (e.g. upgrade the consumer to High Integrity, put some RCBO's in, do a full consumer and circuit test, and a few other bits).

 

[JohnW2]

If Wagos are MF they are MF whatever box they are in surely.

I'm not sure that BS5733, hence BS7671, would necessarily agree with that.

The relevant regulation in BS7671 says that connections do not have to be accessible if there are within something compliant with BS 5733 "for a maintenance-free accessory". an 'accessory' is more than just the components within it.

 

[sxturbo]

So, latest update from NICEIC - it's taken some time to get responses!

Thanks again for your help and advice - it's helped a lot!



Tails Length
We're putting in a mechanical switch to protect against overcurrent, in the meter cupboard (as you gents recommended, of course!)


Tails Location / Protection
They proposed to take out the plaster where the cable goes over the pier and fit a metal plate. But this would only really protect the tails when they're just under the plaster.
(OK, sure, they're probably 3 inches below the plaster on the rest of the wall - but they're in prime "picture hanging" space, and I don't like the thought of someone in the future hitting one of them with a drill).

So, we're running the feed using SWA along the outside of the house instead - from the meter to the consumer. (it's lucky this room is a converted garage that allows for that solutions)


Junction Box - Accessibility
NICEIC tried to claim it would be a contractual dispute as the walls were put up after the installation work.
I pointed out to one of their consultants that the electricians work wasn't just to move the consumer - it was running new sockets, cat6, lights, etc - and they came back during the stud going up, and after plastering, to complete their work. It was all the same work - and they were clearly aware that the junction box would be covered up. So it's an oversight by them.
Consultant agreed.
But now NICEIC are trying to claim contractual dispute again (i.e. not their problem).
Meh.


Consumer Not Tested
Consumer wasn't tested when moved. NICEIC are claiming that it's "too long ago" and they cannot "prove or disprove pre-existing circuits were tested".
Well, they're not listed on the test certificate, are they? Electrician also admitted that they 'overlooked' adding the CU move to their worksheet and the CU testing! Awaiting their response....


External Sockets - Not Earthed Correctly
This popped up along the way. External sockets on the property fed by SWA from the CU.
Their expert had concerns that was the Junction Box was plastic - so they can't gland it there. And the pictures show the SWA doesn't go back to the CU to be earthed there either.
Electrician is going to check if sockets are earthed externally - at the sockets - using a brass banjo +/ flying earth lead.



Getting there - slowly.

Still not overly keen on having the cowboys back to 'fix' the work to be frank as they're messing about somewhat.


I'm in two minds about simply getting someone else in to do the work - and do some extra work too (e.g. upgrade the consumer to High Integrity, put some RCBO's in, do a full consumer and circuit test, and a few other bits).

Makes you wonder what the point of having these governing bodies if they don't do anything to the contractor or make the contractor re-do the work.

It seems like they can't be bothered.

They are supposed to be there to ensure work is upto code and is safe, I don't believe they are doing that in this case, more like fobbing you off because they can't bothered

 

[JohnW2]

Makes you wonder what the point of having these governing bodies if they don't do anything to the contractor or make the contractor re-do the work. .... It seems like they can't be bothered.

You are not the first person to have said such things!

What you have to understand is that they are not 'governing bodies' but, rather, are commercially-motivated trade organisations.

There is no compulsion on electricians to pay their money to become a member of any of these organisations and, in general, no restriction as to what electrical work can be undertaken by someone who is not a member of one of them. The main difference is that, if a member of such an organisation, they can 'self-certify' ('self-notify') notifiable work, which enables them to significantly reduce the amount a customer has to pay when notifiable work is done.

Kind Regards, John

 

[sxturbo]

You are not the first person to have said such things!

What you have to understand is that they are not 'governing bodies' but, rather, are commercially-motivated trade organisations.

There is no compulsion on electricians to pay their money to become a member of any of these organisations and, in general, no restriction as to what electrical work can be undertaken by someone who is not a member of one of them. The main difference is that, if a member of such an organisation, they can 'self-certify' ('self-notify') notifiable work, which enables them to significantly reduce the amount a customer has to pay when notifiable work is done.

Kind Regards, John

But surely they must be performing due diligence otherwise they are authorising sub standard work.

What if the customers house burns down due to the notifiable work not being carried out to the required standard?

Does the body just turn round and say unlucky,

Surely there must be a degree of accountability somewhere.

 

[JohnW2]

But surely they must be performing due diligence otherwise they are authorising sub standard work. What if the customers house burns down due to the notifiable work not being carried out to the required standard?

You'd probably have to ask a lawyer for a definitive answer.

However, I would repeat that these organisations are not in any sense 'regulators' or 'governing bodies' - they are more like 'private members clubs'!

They do not 'authorise' any particular piece of work. Indeed, they are not aware of any particular piece of work until after it has been completed, and even that only if it is notifiable work.

If the organisation can demonstrate that one of its members satisfied their membership requirements in terms of qualifications and the 'assessments' they undertake, then I would imagine that is all that they can be expected to do, legally speaking. Even if a member performs satisfactorily 'whilst being assessed', that is no guarantee that they will work satisfactorily, or even competently, when no assessor is looking over their shoulder.

Surely there must be a degree of accountability somewhere.

There is 'accountability' in terms of membership of the organisation. If, following a complaint from a customer, a member is told to remedy defective work but does not do so, or if the member is a 'repeat offender' (in terms of complaints), they can/could be thrown out of the 'club' (if the organisation didn't mind losing their subscription!) but, as far as I am aware, the organisation has no teeth beyond that.

However, where the 'accountability' really exists is at the level of the individual electrician, who is fully responsible for their own actions, regardless of whatever 'clubs' they may belong to. If, as you mention, a house burns down or someone is injured/killed as a result of sub-standard work, then they will be liable to civil litigation, or maybe even criminal prosecution. Indeed, even if nothing burns down and no-one is harmed etc., I imagine that the individual could still be sued if sub-standard work represented a breach of contract.

Kind Regards, John