After some advice: Mild tingle from shower when in use

[JohnW2]

So we have : A negligible difference between the house and true of 0.2v-0.5v ... A difference between the shower waste and shower of 1.9v - 5.9v (depending on how wet it is apparently). ... So if the house is only 0.5v different to earth, is it reasonable/acceptable that I'd be picking up 1.5v potential difference elsewhere within the house? ... Further to that, is it reasonable/acceptable that the lighting circuit can add 4v when the shower is used?

I think I've got to the stage that I'm no longer able to think straight enough to say what is 'reasonable', but I certainly can't get too excited by any of the voltages you've measured. ... but nor does that necessarily mean that there is 'no problem'. However, as I've observed, even these very small voltage differences (whatever is causing them to be present) might be large enough to be felt by at least some people with 'broken skin'.

Kind Regards, John

 

[TheGovernor]

I think I've got to the stage that I'm no longer able to think straight enough to say what is 'reasonable', but I certainly can't get too excited by any of the voltages you've measured. ... but nor does that necessarily mean that there is 'no problem'. However, as I've observed, even these very small voltage differences (whatever is causing them to be present) might be large enough to be felt by at least some people with 'broken skin'.

Kind Regards, John

I know what you mean My wife is very fed up with my scratching my head

I am beginning to think, as you said earlier in the thread, that this might well be me being more sensitive to it, and then having noticed it started to investigate and found odd things that probably go on all the while.

I've got a different electrician coming out tomorrow from BG, will be interesting to see what he thinks/observes.

If it wasn't for the lighting circuit factor I'd have put this down to real-world behaviours, I just can't get out of my head that switching that circuit off effects the readings...

 

[JohnW2]

I am beginning to think, as you said earlier in the thread, that this might well be me being more sensitive to it, and then having noticed it started to investigate and found odd things that probably go on all the while. ... I've got a different electrician coming out tomorrow from BG, will be interesting to see what he thinks/observes.

Yes, that's all possible. If the person who comes tomorrow doesn't find anything very exciting, don't forget to show them some of your videos - which might at least get them thinking, and confirm that you have a genuine reason to be concerned (even if it proves to be 'harmless'). It is going to be very frustrating, for all of us, if you end up with no 'proper answer', beyond a suspicion that your own personal sensitivities may underlie what you have experienced!

If it wasn't for the lighting circuit factor I'd have put this down to real-world behaviours, I just can't get out of my head that switching that circuit off effects the readings...

If we are talking about 'induced voltage', then any changes in any electrical circuits in the vicinity of the bathroom could have an effect. Are there any other electrical things in the vicinity (heated towel rails, fans, immersion heaters etc.) which you could turn on and off to see if they have any effect on the phenomena?

Kind Regards, John

 

[TheGovernor]

Yes, that's all possible. If the person who comes tomorrow doesn't find anything very exciting, don't forget to show them some of your videos - which might at least get them thinking, and confirm that you have a genuine reason to be concerned (even if it proves to be 'harmless'). It is going to be very frustrating, for all of us, if you end up with no 'proper answer', beyond a suspicion that your own personal sensitivities may underlie what you have experienced!

Plus I'll feel like I've wasted everyone's attention!

If it wasn't for the lighting circuit factor I'd have put this down to real-world behaviours, I just can't get out of my head that switching that circuit off effects the readings...

If we are talking about 'induced voltage', then any changes in any electrical circuits in the vicinity of the bathroom could have an effect. Are there any other electrical things in the vicinity (heated towel rails, fans, immersion heaters etc.) which you could turn on and off to see if they have any effect on the phenomena?

Kind Regards, John[/quote]

Hmm, well, in my bathroom (the one in the video, there is a light in the ceiling and an extractor fan. When the light was switched off (but not the lighting circuit) it didn't affect the volt-pen.

I think I'll take some more readings with combinations of lights off/extractor on/off etc and see... there are cables in the loft for the lights and the like that I suppose could easily be near the pipework somewhere along the way, which may act as inductors I suppose...

 

[deadshort]

The fact is if the voltage disappears when you switch off the upstairs lights you have a fault, which requires investigating. As has been advised I would be looking at all walls and floors around the shower for evidence of cabling connected to the lighting circuit including check the number of cables connected to the lighting breaker. You also have a TV splitter in the attic is that on the lighting circuit ? Check there are no coax couplers or coax cables damaged and in contact with water pipes. If the TV amp is on the lighting circuit, switch it off and check your shower.

Kind regards,

DS

 

[JohnW2]

...It is going to be very frustrating, for all of us, if you end up with no 'proper answer', beyond a suspicion that your own personal sensitivities may underlie what you have experienced!

Plus I'll feel like I've wasted everyone's attention!

Not at all. Some of these 'tingles' threads can be pretty silly, but this one is intriguing, and intellectually stimulating - mainly because of all the 'tests' you have been able to do.

I think I'll take some more readings with combinations of lights off/extractor on/off etc and see... there are cables in the loft for the lights and the like that I suppose could easily be near the pipework somewhere along the way, which may act as inductors I suppose...

Yes, any of that would might be interesting. However, I don't think that we have yet really established whether there are any 'real' voltage differences between things (as opposed to 'induced voltages'). As I suggested/asked before, would it perhaps be possible for you to connect some sort of 'load' (e.g. an old-fashioned filament lamp/bulb) between your multimeter probes and see if you can then still measure any of these (small) voltage differences?

Kind Regards, John

 

[TheGovernor]

The fact is if the voltage disappears when you switch off the upstairs lights you have a fault, which requires investigating. As has been advised I would be looking at all walls and floors around the shower for evidence of cabling connected to the lighting circuit including check the number of cables connected to the lighting breaker. You also have a TV splitter in the attic is that on the lighting circuit ? Check there are no coax couplers or coax cables damaged and in contact with water pipes. If the TV amp is on the lighting circuit, switch it off and check your shower.

Kind regards,

DS

There is a TV splitter up there, you're right, and it is on the light circuit. I can't see any damaged cables but I'll keep looking, I'll also perform that test as well and see what the result is

 

[TheGovernor]

Yes, any of that would might be interesting. However, I don't think that we have yet really established whether there are any 'real' voltage differences between things (as opposed to 'induced voltages'). As I suggested/asked before, would it perhaps be possible for you to connect some sort of 'load' (e.g. an old-fashioned filament lamp/bulb) between your multimeter probes and see if you can then still measure any of these (small) voltage differences?

Kind Regards, John

Sorry John, I didn't pick up that you wanted me to do that, just to clarify, are you asking me to put a bulb between the probes and the shower & waste, i.e. shower hose > bulb > probe > meter >probe (hope that makes sense)?

 

[JohnW2]

Sorry John, I didn't pick up that you wanted me to do that, just to clarify, are you asking me to put a bulb between the probes and the shower & waste, i.e. shower hose > bulb > probe > meter >probe (hope that makes sense)?

Something like this:

Untitled

• JohnW2
• 24 Oct 2014
• 1

You'll have to work out how to connect the bulb/lamp/whatever - it could be at the meter or at the ends of the probes.

Kind Regards, John

 

[TheGovernor]

Got you I'll figure something out!

 

[TheGovernor]

Just an update, had a different BG Electrician out, he was much more thorough than the first, he spent about and hour and a half in the house.

Essentially, he couldn't find any evidence of stray voltage anywhere, He said the upstairs light circuit had 1v at earth but on a circuit this size can be expected, apparently it's permissible up to 6v?

He did run the shower but again, no adverse readings.

His only theory is that there is a leak in the bathroom under the floor where the pipes are (they aren't run via the loft) and that is leaking onto a junction box or light switch and that may be causing it.

He spotted that the seal on the shower door isn't great and is making the plaster damp next to the shower so suggesting sealing that up and seeing what happens.

I would completely go along with his theory that it is the leaky door, except I got the same effect when using a different shower in a different part of the house, and the shower in question hadn't been used for 24 hours or so.

So, while it may be a leak, I'm not so sure it is that leak...
There's no evidence on the downstairs ceiling of any leakage anywhere, so on that basis there's no indication of where to start looking...

The only other option according to him is start ripping the floor up to see what is underneath, and in his own words there might be nothing there anyway.

So now I'm mulling over how I can see between the upstairs floor and the downstairs ceiling, without destroying my house in the process....

 

[JohnW2]

Just an update, had a different BG Electrician out, he was much more thorough than the first, he spent about and hour and a half in the house. ... Essentially, he couldn't find any evidence of stray voltage anywhere, He said the upstairs light circuit had 1v at earth but on a circuit this size can be expected ...

Hmmm. Not much further forward, then.

His only theory is that there is a leak in the bathroom under the floor where the pipes are (they aren't run via the loft) and that is leaking onto a junction box or light switch and that may be causing it.

Any comment in this discussion has to be qualified by "nothing is impossible", but I would have thought that if there were enough water sloshing around under the floorboards for significant amounts to get into a junction box, you would by now have water coming through the ceiling below - or, at least, evidence of the water leak on the ceiling.

The only other option according to him is start ripping the floor up to see what is underneath, and in his own words there might be nothing there anyway.

I'm a bit confused by that. Although it would probably be necessary to rip up flooring to deal with any water leak that was detected, if his theory is that water in a JB is causing an (electrical) 'leak', I would have expected him to confirm (or dismiss) that possibility by undertaking Insulation Resistance tests on all the relevant circuits, which would not require any interference with the flooring.

Kind Regards, John

 

[TheGovernor]

I'm a bit confused by that. Although it would probably be necessary to rip up flooring to deal with any water leak that was detected, if his theory is that water in a JB is causing an (electrical) 'leak', I would have expected him to confirm (or dismiss) that possibility by undertaking Insulation Resistance tests on all the relevant circuits, which would not require any interference with the flooring.

Kind Regards, John

Gah! Although I mentioned this to him when he arrived, I forgot to ask him if he did that test, balls! I have a feeling he didn't as the whole focus seems to be on finding whether or not the shower is going to earth...

 

[deadshort]

As you have said John, I find in quite frighting at the lack of IR testing, which should/would be the first thing any electrician would undertake to determine the existence of any earth leakage.

DS.

 

[TheGovernor]

As you have said John, I find in quite frighting at the lack of IR testing, which should/would be the first thing any electrician would undertake to determine the existence of any earth leakage.

DS.

It's winding me up to be honest!! The guy left me his number, so I just phoned him, he is saying he doesn't need ot do an IT test because he found no leakage to earth.

He is saying seal up the bathroom first and see what happens... which to my mind is back to front, surely an IR test first, then seal up the bathroom followed by another IR test actually proves something...