Bame people

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

t Ian Smith wanted permanent white minority rule, Smith himself said on numerous occasions that he no objection to majority rule in principle but it could only be arrived at gradually.

He had a right wing government with a 35 majority in a 66 seat parliamentary chamber.
It was never going to happen.
Smith's view was that the black African was denied the vote because they had no experience of the democratic system.

 

[ajohn]

One of the big lies put out by left wing press was that Ian Smith wanted permanent white minority rule, Smith himself said on numerous occasions that he no objection to majority rule in principle but it could only be arrived at gradually.

I don't think it is a left wing view - just a political view from all sides at times. Wilson and Mrs T aren't exactly the same are they.

Correct. Smith and co put it simply - they are not ready for self rule. It needs to introduced slowly over time. He's real problem was probably declaring they were independent of the uk. There were other African countries in much the same position - more or less or total white rule, uk and they were left to get on with it. Some have been more successful since. Many have problems with their politicians at times such as corruption. Success means comparing with other countries in black Africa not people living in Mayfair. This sort of thing is what should be called Liberal types never really consider. Just like Bobby doesn't with people living in grass huts and waving spears about until more "civilised" countries gave them guns. Rhodes handing out fist fulls of pound notes to them wouldn't be of much use to them. Jobs, railways, education etc if they are to advance are a different matter. Like many things there is some good and some bad. It's a fact the people who subsequently get power do not do all that much extra good. Getting clothes made in Bangladesh however does - for a start.

 

[JohnD]

Smith and co put it simply - they are not ready for self rule.

yes, it was a common argument for White immigrants to say "these blacks can be treated like human beings one day, and given rights, but not yet"

It's just an excuse. "I want to be the dominant race for my lifetime, and my children and grandchildren will say the same"

 

[transam]

Given the current state of Zimbabwe
Smith may have had a point

I see some government minister is involved in some 60 million squid fraud over some PPE deal with Hungary

Probably the tip of the ice berg

Get rid of one despot and replace him with another

Pretty much sums up Africa in the last 30 odd years tbh

 

[ajohn]

yes, it was a common argument for White immigrants to say "these blacks can be treated like human beings one day, and given rights, but not yet"

Junk comment John. In some cases what was there was reduced to junk in some cases due to lack of knowledge on how to look after it. This is where education comes into things. Without it that's what happens. The other point of course is the people left in control turn in despots and or are corrupt. One of the problems of power. It often does that.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

... Just like Bobby doesn't with people living in grass huts and waving spears about until more "civilised" countries gave them guns. ...

Your attitude is coming through loud and clear.
No doubt you support Boris, not for his Tory policies, not even for his bumbling manner, more for his racist views.
Are you a Trump supporter as well, for his racist views and policies?

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Get rid of one despot and replace him with another

Pretty much sums up Africa in the last 30 odd years tbh

Sadly, you're right. Get rid of colonial rule, and follow their examples doesn't always work out too well.
But then colonialism and imperialism never does.
But when they had independence, at least they also had the right to vote.

Initially, massive strides were made. But crippling western economic sanctions led by UK caused massive economic damage.

In 1992, a World Bank study indicated that more than 500 health centres had been built since 1980. The percentage of children vaccinated increased from 25% in 1980 to 67% in 1988 and life expectancy increased from 55 to 59 years. Enrolment increased by 232 per cent one year after primary education was made free and secondary school enrolment increased by 33 per cent in two years. These social policies lead to an increase in the debt ratio.Several laws were passed in the 1980s in an attempt to reduce wage gaps. However, the gaps remained considerable. In 1988, the law gave women, at least in theory, the same rights as men. Previously, they could only take a few personal initiatives without the consent of their father or husband

Opposition to President Mugabe and the ZANU-PF government grew considerably after the mid-1990s in part due to worsening economic and human rights conditions brought about by crippling economic sanctions imposed by western countries led by Britain in response to land seizures from the White minority farmers.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Zimbabwe

​

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

The other point of course is the people left in control turn in despots and or are corrupt. One of the problems of power. It often does that.

You are using Rhodes and Smith as examples, I take it?

 

[noseall]

One advantage of this lock down caper is Noseall has not been able to go on one of his foreign excurdions

Woohoo! looks like Benners and golf is back on. Yay!

 

[transam]

Woohoo! looks like Benners and golf is back on. Yay!

Golf

Jeez us wept

More environmental destruction than

 

[noseall]

More environmental destruction than

Than what?

 

[ajohn]

Sadly, you're right. Get rid of colonial rule, and follow their examples doesn't always work out too well.

S Africa is an interesting outcome. The political powers know that they need an economy so things finish up in a status quo that could be argued as still wrong but what to do about it as the economy is needed. This is the area that Mugabe got wrong. You also missed some bits like western countries applied sanctions.

President Shagari pledged $15 million at the celebration to train Zimbabweans in Zimbabwe and expatriates in Nigeria. Mugabe's government used part of the money to buy newspaper companies owned by South Africans, increasing the government's control over the media. The rest went to training students in Nigerian universities, government workers in the Administrative Staff College of Nigeria in Badagry, and soldiers in the Nigerian Defence Academy in Kaduna. Later that year Mugabe commissioned a report by the BBC on press freedom in Zimbabwe. The BBC issued its report on 26 June, recommending the privatisation of the Zimbabwe Broadcasting Corporation and its independence from political interests

These social policies lead to an increase in the debt ratio

The new Constitution provided for an executive President as Head of State with a Prime Minister as Head of Government. Reverend Canaan Banana served as the first President. In government amended the Constitution in 1987 to provide for an Executive President and abolished the office of Prime Minister. The constitutional changes came into effect on 1 January 1988 with Robert Mugabe as President.

The Constitution established two separate voters rolls, one for the black majority, who had 80% of the seats in Parliament, and the other for whites and other ethnic minorities, such as Coloureds, people of mixed race, and Asians, who held 20%. The government amended the Constitution in 1986, eliminating the voter rolls and replacing the white seats with seats filled by nominated members. Many white MPs joined ZANU which then reappointed them. In 1990 the government abolished the Senate and increased the House of Assembly's membership to include members nominated by the President.

Prime Minister Mugabe kept Peter Walls, the head of the army, in his government and put him in charge of integrating the Zimbabwe People's Revolutionary Army (ZIPRA), Zimbabwe African National Liberation Army (ZANLA), and the Rhodesian Army. While Western media outlets praised Mugabe's efforts at reconciliation with the white minority, tension soon developed.

Ethnic divisions soon came back to the forefront of national politics. Tension between ZAPU and ZANU erupted with guerrilla activity starting again in Matabeleland in south-western Zimbabwe. Nkomo (ZAPU) left for exile in Britain and did not return until Mugabe guaranteed his safety. In 1982 government security officials discovered large caches of arms and ammunition on properties owned by ZAPU, accusing Nkomo and his followers of plotting to overthrow the government. Mugabe fired Nkomo and his closest aides from the cabinet.

One of the interesting things about him is that he was a marxist yet the Russians preferred some one else as he was seen as too extreme so China armed him and also provided military advisors on the ground.

A bit on sanctions

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960s_in_Rhodesia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_reaction_to_the_2008_Zimbabwean_presidential_election

Like many really he did some good and also cut his own throat at the same time. End result no good at all.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

You also missed some bits like western countries applied sanctions.

Clearly, you're not reading my comments. I guess you're just using them as a springboard for your own version of, "Africa should be recolonised", as per Boris Johnson's racist attitude and "Enoch Powell was misunderstood".

Opposition to President Mugabe and the ZANU-PF government grew considerably after the mid-1990s in part due to worsening economic and human rights conditions brought about by crippling economic sanctions imposed by western countries led by Britain in response to land seizures from the White minority farmers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Zimbabwe​

​

Like many really he did some good and also cut his own throat at the same time. End result no good at all.

You missed this bit from your quote:

Mugabe's administration expanded healthcare and education and—despite his professed desire for a socialist society—adhered largely to mainstream, conservative economic policies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Mugabe
​

BTW, he died from cancer, (supposedly, possibly testicular cancer). His throat wasn't affected,

 

[ajohn]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Zimbabwean_Marxists

It's mentioned elsewhere as well. China and Russia would have little to do with conservative type politics.

Anyway. You will never understand my view point. One aspect is pretty simple on this one. Other similar countries went through the same thing and came out better. Still not as good as they may become eventually but better than they were. But what is better. Subsistent this and that living and all that goes with it or some sort of economy. An economy can grow.

Figure out the others yourself. I'm not saying imperialism and colonisation is good. It isn't but has had outcomes that are good. Much the same goes on these days via use of super cheap labour where people live on very very little. There have been numerous cases where eventually that has done well for people who live there but it's still exploitation. LOL Some of the ideas of the EU work on the same principle.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Zimbabwean_Marxists

That link lists 3 or 4 individuals who were known to be communist.
What's your point?

It's mentioned elsewhere as well. China and Russia would have little to do with conservative type politics.

What's mentioned elsewhere?

Anyway. You will never understand my view point.

I understand well enough. You think Africa would be better off if it were recolonised by UK.
You think Enoch Powell wasn't a racist and you believe his anecdotal evidence to be true even though it's been proven to be concocted.
You believe that UK brought civilisation to Africa, and without UK colonising Africa, the Africans would be dancing around waving their spears at each other.

One aspect is pretty simple on this one. Other similar countries went through the same thing and came out better.

Such as?

Still not as good as they may become eventually but better than they were. But what is better. Subsistent this and that living and all that goes with it or some sort of economy. An economy can grow.

You're demonstrating yet again that you believe colonising Africa was for the benefit of the Africans.

Figure out the others yourself.

Figure out what others? The other white races maybe?

I'm not saying imperialism and colonisation is good. It isn't but has had outcomes that are good.

You have lived in this parallel dimension where colonisation didn't take place, and you're in a position to make a comparison?
Can you name some good outcomes from colonisation?

Much the same goes on these days via use of super cheap labour where people live on very very little. There have been numerous cases where eventually that has done well for people who live there but it's still exploitation.

Like where?

Some of the ideas of the EU work on the same principle.

Such as?