Can I fit an unvented cylinder...

Status
Not open for further replies.
Where did you obtain this info Glasgowgas? I am not a member of a recognised body (plumbing) as far as I am aware. Nobody asked me if I was when I signed up for the course and BPEC did not ask me such a question before issuing my ticket.
I can help a bit with this one because I'm looking into doing the course as a holiday from my normal job.

The BPEC site says this:

The training course is aimed at practising plumbers and heating engineers who already have a knowledge of the fundamental requirements of hot and cold water systems and central heating systems, or students who are nearing completion of a plumbing and heating vocational qualification at Level 3.
 
Sponsored Links
Can any one of the people, living in this country, who are warning of explosions, provide any of the following statistics?


The number of unvented systems correctly installed is _____ .

The number of unvented systems incorrectly installed is _____ .

The number of explosions resulting from a component fault is _____ .

The number of explosions resulting from installer error is _____ .

For the very worst explosion, when the system exceeded its design pressure, the failure point was the _____ .

The damage caused to people and property was _____ .
 
I had to find out for myself because nobody here was helping. It isn't useful to to tell me that "something is wrong" when I already know it, and it isn't helpful to get all melodramatic about "danger" and "insurance" without specifying the danger and why insurance might be needed. Perhaps you respect people who act in this way, but they don't deserve respect for just typing a lot of words at a keyboard.

Dear Iconic,

I hope that you will be able to see that this is a public forum where many people of varing abilities read the posts.

When a particular action, like installing or repairing an unvented cylinder, requires a qualified person then it would be totally irresponsible of anyone on here to give DIY advice which might encourage someone to do something he is not able to do safely.

Whilst you may consider you are safe to to work on an unvented, we have no way of knowing your capabilities and in any case others reading these forums might be encouraged to "have a go" when they are not capable.

Tony
 
Dear Agile

Thank you for your full and courteous reply. Generally, the points you make are all valid.

However, the advice about regenerating the air gap was the most relevant part, and this was lacking. glasgowgas gave a useful hint, then everyone just sat there and threw jibes. This is absurd behaviour. If users can't be trusted to regenerate the gap, then why is the procedure printed on the side of new units?

Given that my first reaction to go on the course, I'm clearly not someone who was planning to "have a go", but instead to do things properly. Just have a look back at the encouragement that I got to do the course. Other than doitall's post, it was pitiful.

Anyway, I have work to do, and for that reason, I'm out.

I'll be back if anyone can provide some hard numbers about unvented systems, but given the general calibre of members here, I can't see it happening.
 
Sponsored Links
Can any one of the people, living in this country, who are warning of explosions, provide any of the following statistics?


The number of unvented systems correctly installed is _____ .

The number of unvented systems incorrectly installed is _____ .

The number of explosions resulting from a component fault is _____ .

The number of explosions resulting from installer error is _____ .

For the very worst explosion, when the system exceeded its design pressure, the failure point was the _____ .

The damage caused to people and property was _____ .

I was shown examples on the course I did a couple of weeks back including one that took down a school during the summer holidays.

The big shocking thing is we dont know the answer to a lot of your questions and its probably more luck than judgement that there have not been more incidents (also due to the fact not a lot normally fitted).
But the use of these is on the increase and I believe it is only a matter time before there are more incidents as people dont get them checked or serviced or dont actually know what they are and how they should be used.

I only posted examples of the worst things that can and have happened in America where these systems have been widely used and are the norm.
There are loads of examples of failures of cylinders and controls causing houses to come down.
In the last longer clip it documents a few serious incidents.
But wire in mate if you want to fit them as it says in the building regs you need to be competent and inform the local authority of your intention to instal and to fit one without doing so is ILLEGAL, then on your head be it if something goes wrong or somebody looks for the building warrant in later times.
 
One of you even said that they didn't think it was the cylinder - how incompetent is that?

But it wasn't the cylinder, was it?... The cylinder wasn't leaking. One would assume that the owner could read the instructions on the side of the cylinder about how to reinstate the air bubble so it would be logical to think that you had already done this... I fail to see how the loss of your air gap and inabillity to reinstate it could be taken as a faulty cylinder... Lack of servicing perhaps or even the home owner not capable of reading simple instrucions or even the home owner incapable of using the search button.. This topic has been covered many times before and one of the first solutions given is usually to reinstate the air gap..

Feel free to bore us some more.. :rolleyes:
 
6
However, there was some concern regarding the removal of the words
“shall be installed by a person competent to do so” from the requirement in the
Regulations relating to the installation of unvented hot water storage systems. This led a
number of trade organisations to suggest that the proposal potentially reduces safety
standards for the installation of such systems. In practice however, this installation work
is nowadays carried out in the great majority of cases by members of self-certification
schemes approved in the Building Regulations as competent to carry out this work
without it being notified to a building control body, or by someone holding a registered
operative identity card that shows that person has undergone suitable training for such
work. Installation by a self-certification scheme member is a sufficient safeguard,
because that installer will need to have demonstrated competence to the scheme operator
before gaining the right to self-certify the installation. Similarly, holders of a registered
operative skills certification card will have the necessary skills, but have chosen not to
join a self-certification scheme. It will continue to be the case that persons in either of
these categories will do most installation work. For work done by those in the latter
category, and in any other cases, it will be the responsibility of the building control body
to make sure the installation is safe, and the degree of supervision that is required will be
apparent to the body from the plans and descriptions that it is given for the work. It is the
safety of the installation that is at issue. However, in the light of concerns about how the
change will be interpreted, there has been inserted text into the Approved Document that
recommends the employment of a person who is able to demonstrate their competence
through membership of a competent persons self-certification scheme or by the holding
of a current registered operative card for unvented hot water systems.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2009/em/uksiem_20091219_en.pdf


SEEMS BUILDING REGS WANT YOU TO HAVE A TICKET OR BE A MEMBER OF A BODY THAT SAYS YOU ARE COMPETENT ;)
 
I only posted examples of the worst things that can and have happened in America where these systems have been widely used and are the norm.
There are loads of examples of failures of cylinders and controls causing houses to come down.
In the last longer clip it documents a few serious incidents.

yes and without the control and safety gear in the uk

hell your lucky if the prv is connected :eek:

no overtemp cutout no balanced supplies hell not even inlet filters

you don't need all that yer just wimps

one took a house down in davidson county about 3 weeks ago

but what do i know ;)
 
http://www.plumbingpages.com/featurepages/HWT&P.cfm

Hot water heater in school kills seven
What follows is an extract from the fire journal report on an incident that took place at the Star elementary school in 1982.

A malfunction of an 85-gallon hot water heater occurred during a lunch period at the Star Elementary School in Spencer, Oklahoma, on January 19, 1982. One corner of the cafeteria was destroyed by the explosion and pieces of concrete block were thrown across the lunchroom. Six children and one teacher were killed and 33 others suffered injuries of varying degrees. The malfunction was caused by overheating of the water in the tank and lack of emergency temperature-relieving capability.



Two gas-fired water heaters were located in a corner of the kitchen, in a small utility room. The two water heaters were piped in series; the first heater, Heater A, heated water to approximately 160°F for the kitchen, a lavatory in the northwest corner of the kitchen, and a sink on the kitchen side of the lavatory wall. The second heater, Heater B, was supplied from Heater A where the temperature of the water would be boosted to 1800-190°F for use in the rinse cycle of the dishwashing machine. It was the opinion of the investigative team that the burner on the high-temperature heater (Heater B) had fired continuously from the time that the plumber com- pleted his service on the tank, at approximately 11:00 am, until the explosion at 12:15 pm -a time span of about one hour and fifteen minutes.


The probable cause of the continuous firing of the burner was the failure of the thermostat, because inter nal corrosion within the thermostat had eroded a portion of the seating surface, allowing a small amount of bleed gas to pass through the damaged seat; hence, the leakage of the bleed gas through the thermostat sent a signal to the burner valve to remain in the open position. From information available, this thermostat control was estimated to be 12 to 14 years old.
Markings on screw heads and internal inspection indicated that the thermostat on Heater B had been opened in the field; comments by school maintenance personnel indicated that this was a common practice, the purpose being to recalibrate the thermostat to allow for higher temperature settings.

Testing and internal inspection revealed that the upper temperature limit control was inoperable before the explosion. The Fire officers report concluded that an attempt had been made to adjust the control; mis-alignment of the control spring indicated that the control had ceased to function, since the mechanism would not seal off the flow of bleed gas. This control was also estimated to be 12 to 14 years old.



The pressure and additional temperature-relief protection for the exploded tank was a combination pressure and temperature-relief valve (commonly called "T&P relief valve" ) in a common housing. After close examination, the investigators determined that the temperature-sensing element had been removed, leaving the T&P valve with no temperature-relief capability. They further discovered that the relief valve had been improperly installed, using a 45° elbow fitting which would have made it impossible to install the valve with the temperature-sensing element in place and properly projecting into the upper six inches of water in the heater.


The continuous build-up of heat from an uncontrolled burner with no emergency temperature-relief capability resulted in a water temperature above 212°F (i. e. superheated water). When the tank failed, a portion of the superheated water instantly expanded to steam, creating the thrust that propelled the tank pieces and the shock-wave effect identified as the blast, or explosion. Other factors that had some bearing on the accident, either directly or indirectly, were reported by the Fire officer:

The investigation revealed that there was no preventive maintenance program in place or in practice.
The supervision of maintenance engineers to determine the quality of their work and field practices was inadequate.
The lack of in-service training for maintenance engineers permitted practices that were not in the best interests of safety and performance of the equipment.
Warehousing of valves and controls at the Maintenance Center was done in a manner that increased the possibility of damage to the parts.
The accident demonstrates the need for a means to prevent temperatures above 212°F in water heaters, because a hazard does not exist if the liquid in a container is at a temperature below its normal boiling point. The missing temperature-relief element, set at 210°F, in the temperature-pressure relief valve would have been one such means. Without this, the high temperature thermostat in the control circuit for the automatic valve was the only such means in place. This was intended to close the valve when the temperature reached 210°F. However, it failed -apparently due to corrosion.
 
iconic,

it was/wasnt a useful hint, its what you should have done first,before coming onto a diy forum asking for advice.

its like a red rag to a bull on here when someone posts a question and pros dont know what you have done or how far along the line of acceptable things the diyer can do first.

if you re generated the air gap and it was still leaking what would you do next?

i know the answer, but it means removing/stripping/replacing safety critical parts. if a diyer followed a thread and replaced a safety critical part and something disasterous happened, it would be on my conscience forever.

back to the hint(?) its on a label on the cylinder so the general public can do it for themselves, the same as a free standing cooker can be disconnected from the bayonet fitting by the user to clean behind cooker.

but if the safety critical parts on the cooker fail the manufacturer (in great length) will say in their manual a competent person must replace the failed parts, not gas safe registered or corgi,but competent.

and the only way to show competency is (in the case of unvented cylinders) is to hold a G3 certificate.

the hows,whys and wherefores are at govt level,in conjunction with the hse......nothing to do with me!!!!!!!!

do hope you go on course, will be another string to your bow, best of british!!
 
Can any one of the people, living in this country, who are warning of explosions, provide any of the following statistics?


The number of unvented systems correctly installed is _____ .

The number of unvented systems incorrectly installed is _____ .

The number of explosions resulting from a component fault is _____ .

The number of explosions resulting from installer error is _____ .

For the very worst explosion, when the system exceeded its design pressure, the failure point was the _____ .

The damage caused to people and property was _____ .

All irrelevant and in most case an unknown or impossible question.

The Wras approve the design before it can be manufactured, and the safety devices are in place to prevent any of the above from occurring, unless some DIYer decides, he knows it all, and forgets a few bits, modifies a few bits, or just gets it all wrong including the electrical side.

Should you ever find the rest of the label that conveniently went missing you will read they advise the need for a competent person to work on an unvented cylinder.
 
All irrelevant and in most case an unknown or impossible question.
In that case I was wrong to infer helpfulness in your earlier post, so I've removed the thanks that I had left.

I don't need to find the missing piece of label because I've already read and understood the installation instructions, and I am now a competent person.

I don't know why you regard the loss of the label as being convenient - it was very inconvenient for me. If it had been there in the first place then I wouldn't have had to ask the question here and put up with the misplaced egos on this forum.
 

DIYnot Local

Staff member

If you need to find a tradesperson to get your job done, please try our local search below, or if you are doing it yourself you can find suppliers local to you.

Select the supplier or trade you require, enter your location to begin your search.


Are you a trade or supplier? You can create your listing free at DIYnot Local

 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Sponsored Links
Back
Top