Commons Statement on Hillsborough

[billynick]

The people on this thread banging on about pushing, could you please study this document and the give a more informed view.

This document conclusively proves that the ground capacity was massively higher than it should have been. The section quoted had a capacity and a number of tickets sold for it that was twice what was later deemed safe, because the local council plans had shown the leppings lane terrace to be far bigger than it actually was.

Its far from pushing, its overcrowding on a massive scale, it was overcrowded in 89, 88, 87 and 81 when i was in that end. You can't blame pushing when the authorities cram far too many people into a space than it can take.

Christ, you wouldn't keep chickens that way.

 

[peterperfection]

The people on this thread banging on about pushing, could you please study this document and the give a more informed view.

This document conclusively proves that the ground capacity was massively higher than it should have been. The section quoted had a capacity and a number of tickets sold for it that was twice what was later deemed safe, because the local council plans had shown the leppings lane terrace to be far bigger than it actually was.

Its far from pushing, its overcrowding on a massive scale, it was overcrowded in 89, 88, 87 and 81 when i was in that end. You can't blame pushing when the authorities cram far too many people into a space than it can take.

Christ, you wouldn't keep chickens that way.

Is that in the papers tomorrow Billy ?

 

[billynick]

Pete, its part of the papers uncovered by the independent panel available to all online.

 

[joinerjohn]

Reading that document, it's plain that it was Sheffield City Council who were to blame for the overestimation of the capacity of the Leppings Lane terraces. Apparently because the scale drawings used were drawn to a different scale , which made the terraces appear larger than they actually were.
Anyone now like to blame Sheffield City Council ?

 

[snico]

Reading that document, it's plain that it was Sheffield City Council who were to blame for the overestimation of the capacity of the Leppings Lane terraces. Apparently because the scale drawings used were drawn to a different scale , which made the terraces appear larger than they actually were.
Anyone now like to blame Sheffield City Council ?

Surprised you have not blamed the Liverpool fans for the drawings

 

[peterperfection]

Reading that document, it's plain that it was Sheffield City Council who were to blame for the overestimation of the capacity of the Leppings Lane terraces. Apparently because the scale drawings used were drawn to a different scale , which made the terraces appear larger than they actually were.
Anyone now like to blame Sheffield City Council ?

Surprised you have not blamed the Liverpool fans for the drawings

Give it a rest snico.
It was a valid comment.

 

[billynick]

Reading that document, it's plain that it was Sheffield City Council who were to blame for the overestimation of the capacity of the Leppings Lane terraces. Apparently because the scale drawings used were drawn to a different scale , which made the terraces appear larger than they actually were.
Anyone now like to blame Sheffield City Council ?

With all due respect john your view was pushing by liverpool fans caused the disaster, and you were wrong. My view is these documents were available from 1989, west midlands police conducted the investigation, I'm extremly concerned why these documents have not been made public before now.

 

[peterperfection]

Reading that document, it's plain that it was Sheffield City Council who were to blame for the overestimation of the capacity of the Leppings Lane terraces. Apparently because the scale drawings used were drawn to a different scale , which made the terraces appear larger than they actually were.
Anyone now like to blame Sheffield City Council ?

With all due respect john your view was pushing by liverpool fans caused the disaster, and you were wrong. My view is these documents were available from 1989, west midlands police conducted the investigation, I'm extremly concerned why these documents have not been made public before now.

Not available because internet was in its infancy then.

BUT- at the end of the day-- if people didnt push- no disaster would have happened.
It's about time the people of Liverpool let it go .
Please tell me- what exactly do they want to happen now ?
Justice they say- so- what is justice ?.
They said they wanted the Truth--ok- now they have got a answer . Where do they go from here /.?
Just exactly WHAT DO THEY WANT ?
Do they want police officers on trial and then locked up ? Ambulance men taken out of service ? and locked up. ?

Or- compensation ? money money money ?.
YOU tell me what they want please ???. Go on- I dare you to answer . And- please dont just say Justice . What exactly do they want ??.
No answer to that- is there ??.
So- dont skip around the answer to the question- JUST Say .
.

 

[joinerjohn]

With due respect, Billy, my point is that the pushing certainly did contribute to the disaster. Others on here simply dismiss this as scouse baiting (when it isn't) and resort to insults. My whole point is that there were many contributing factors to the disaster,(all of which must share culpablilty) but people here just want to blame South Yorkshire Police 100%, instead of looking at the whole picture that day. There are some on here, who even admit they weren't there, but who also state that they want revenge, (not justice).

 

[joe-90]

It's all about proving culpability and opening the door to compensation. Money makes the world go round.

 

[calorific]

It's all about proving culpability and opening the door to compensation. Money makes the world go round.

Do you really thing there's going to be any sort of class action for compensation? Surely it's not what it's all been about

 

[billynick]

With due respect, Billy, my point is that the pushing certainly did contribute to the disaster. Others on here simply dismiss this as scouse baiting (when it isn't) and resort to insults. My whole point is that there were many contributing factors to the disaster,(all of which must share culpablilty) but people here just want to blame South Yorkshire Police 100%, instead of looking at the whole picture that day. There are some on here, who even admit they weren't there, but who also state that they want revenge, (not justice).

John i have stated in previous posts that i don't believe pushing was a factor, its obvious overcrowding in the pens caused the crush.

Sheffield city certainly were to blame for overestimating the capacity of the leppings lane end AND its also there duty to the public to make sure that hillsborough had a safety certificate. They didn't have a safety certificate from 1979 to 1989.

Sheffield Wednesday are also to blame for knowingly stageing games for 10 YEARS without a safety certificate.

The FA are to blame for not insisting on inspecting the safety certificate of a club hosting an FA cup semi final.

South Yorkshire police are to blame as it was there job to see that the match passed off without incident. Its obvious as events unfolded that command and control failed miserably. A police control box overlooking the terrace had a birds eye view of crowd, no action was taken to stop the disaster.
To make matters worse south yorkshire police perverted the course of justice by almost instantly getting a cover up underway. Their black propaganda unit got into full swing with its smear campaign against the victims. They later illegally altered statements and hid evidense.

Many people were to blame but only the south yorkshire police acted in a criminal way.

The Thatcher government were to blame as they knew the truth and were happy to lock documents away for years.

To finish the liverpool fans were let down by everybody, all those with a duty to protect them failed to do just that. These public servants must be accountable, its their responcibilty, and the families of the 96 and liverpool
people as a whole do not want revenge, they purely want JUSTICE and for 23 years its been denied them because of an establisment CRIMINAL COVER UP.

 

[peterperfection]

It's all about proving culpability and opening the door to compensation. Money makes the world go round.

Do you really thing there's going to be any sort of class action for compensation? Surely it's not what it's all been about

With respect- everything is about money.
There is one exception though- and that is about the believed right to dwell on grief of others .
That unfortunately applies to the people of a certain city. It's just a long held cultural belief .
it is what stokes the fire in their bellies.
Sounds harsh- I know- but it really is how other citizens of this fine country see it.
I am really not 'anti-scouse'-- I am just 'pro' decent people .
They need to let go of the latent anger they posses about everything .
Until they do so- this anger will fester away in the hearts of the people who have loved and lost .
Let your fellow city citizens who have lost- grieve in peace please.
Nothing you do, say or any action you take will bring their loved ones back.
Move on.

 

[captaincaveman1]

I did say earlier , that I would bow out of this thread, so forgive me for joining back in.. No matter how many people (in authority) apologise for what happened 23 yrs ago, It just simply isn't going to bring anyone back. OK the police made the fateful decision to open "Gate C" (which led to the tragedy) ,,, However, had they not made the decision to open the gate, I'm sure many fans would have been crushed outside of the ground. They were damned if they did, damned if they didn't.
OK, it's reprehensible that the police altered records and blamed the Liverpool fans, totally for what happened, but this is all with hindsight (which is a great thing) . With hindsight , we can stop things happening, But us humans are not blessed with the power of hindsight. All we can do is move on, and accept things that have happened in the past
It's no good looking back and saying "What if."
As I see it, South Yorkshire Police, and people who weren't even elected MP's(at the time) have apologised. I have yet to hear an apology from any "Fan" who was in the ground that day, who pressed forward, helping to crush those 96 people who died. Until those people accept their part (however small) in the events that unfolded that day, I will not accept that South Yorkshire Police, were solely to blame.

bow back out

 

[billynick]

Reading that document, it's plain that it was Sheffield City Council who were to blame for the overestimation of the capacity of the Leppings Lane terraces. Apparently because the scale drawings used were drawn to a different scale , which made the terraces appear larger than they actually were.
Anyone now like to blame Sheffield City Council ?

With all due respect john your view was pushing by liverpool fans caused the disaster, and you were wrong. My view is these documents were available from 1989, west midlands police conducted the investigation, I'm extremly concerned why these documents have not been made public before now.

Not available because internet was in its infancy then.

BUT- at the end of the day-- if people didnt push- no disaster would have happened.
It's about time the people of Liverpool let it go .
Please tell me- what exactly do they want to happen now ?
Justice they say- so- what is justice ?.
They said they wanted the Truth--ok- now they have got a answer . Where do they go from here /.?
Just exactly WHAT DO THEY WANT ?
Do they want police officers on trial and then locked up ? Ambulance men taken out of service ? and locked up. ?

Or- compensation ? money money money ?.
YOU tell me what they want please ???. Go on- I dare you to answer . And- please dont just say Justice . What exactly do they want ??.
No answer to that- is there ??.
So- dont skip around the answer to the question- JUST Say .
.

Peter, you really are a sad individual with not an ounce of compassion in your bones.
There are many people on this thread happy to debate this issue, your not one of them. We can post all the information or in my case personal experience of crushing in the leppings lane end, and you choose to ignore it all. The taylor report in 1990 exonerated liverpool fans of any blame, the hillsborough independent panel studied documents hidden for over 20 years and found evidence of an institutional cover up, and you ignore all findings. WHY?

Its clear for all to see you have an anti liverpudlian attitude that stops you seeing anything other than your ignorant version of your own warped idea of what happed that day.

And here you are demanding answers to your questions, yet you never answer a single question honestly.

I firmly believe that many south yorkshire policemen shared your attitude towards liverpudlians, how else can we explain how they ignored the suffering going on right in front of there eyes!

This is the last time i will reply to any of your posts, you bring nothing to this debate other than bile and hatred.