Controversial

[JBR]

I did hear on the news the other day, that ,, if the UK leaves the European Union, it could quickly become a third world country.... Never thought the UK would improve to that extent.

 

[RogueHanger]

What do you mean “if that’s what you want from your MP”? That’s what we’ve got!

We get the same dishonest self-serving cronies voted in every time from the two horse race: Crooked expense claims, infidelity, lies!

I can understand your way of thinking, BT, but it is only a tiny percentage of MPs who behave dishonestly, viz Police, NHS staff, etc.

Quite honestly, I’m at a stage in life where I’ve been fed like a mushroom for so long I’d rather vote for someone with whom I disagree but is at least honest about their stance than be constantly lied to.

Indeed. That's exactly what I'm hoping for.

As long as people realise exactly what they are voting for:
Nige/UKIP are a far right wing liberalist party, further right than our Maggie was. Possibly verging on xenophobia. (remember Hitler's rise in popularity in the '30s? )
Do you understand what that means?
At the best, it means a noticable reduction of government in peoples lives.
This would entail reduction in the welfare state, possibly to the point of increasing the reliance on private insurance for those things you now take for granted.
It would undoubtedly mean the reduction or direct aggression against unions.
It would mean increased privatisation of governmental functions.

This is why UKIP appear to be a one-trick pony. They are fully aware that if they divulged their true colours supporters would run a mile. The crazy thing is that a lot of their support is from over-50s and dissillusioned labour supporters! Can you imagine the furore that would ensue if UKIP gained power? Their support would vanish and government would be thrown into turmoil with an unpopular party in power for as long as they could hang on.

 

[mark vincent]

If UKIP achieve a big enough mandate they can use it as a big stick to beat the government with if they don't renegotiate the UK's relationship with Europe.
In the event of a hung parliament UKIP could hold the balance of power , UKIP don't actually have to win power outright to achieve change.

Ahh, I detect a shift in your position. Your original comment was about immigration. Now that I've enlightened you to the real policy of UKIP, you've adopted that argument.
It would appear that you are a UKIP supported irrespective of their real policies.

Other than that you still don't get it, do you?
The (current) govenment have already stated that they will renegotiate that relationship, and/or hold a referendum. It doesn't matter what size of stick anyone else holds. It won't change the status quo.
The Labour party will hold a referendum if any real change occurs, but otherwise we'll remain in.
The Lib Dems will remain in, come what may. I suspect that is the real poisition of the other two parties as well, but they just won't admit it.

As for UKIP having an effect in a hung parliament, you should watch that pogramme. All and any motion in EU parliament was voted against by our Nige, but the motions were still carried! He was about effective as a protester standing outside!
In fact he was probably less effective.

However I'd still like to see him at PMQ. Perhaps as the leader of the opposition, it would be even more interesting.

Do you really believe that any of these parties will hold a referendum if relected? do you believe in the tooth fairy as well.
It is significant that they wont hold their referendum until they are relected, didnt they say the same thing before the last election, they are just dangling a carrot to entice the donkey electorate to vote for them.
Once they get back in it will be the same old excuse "that a week is a long time in politics"i.e. "circumstances have changed blah, blah", "a referendum is no longer appropriate blah, blah, but don't worry we have another plan ".

Apparently if the news papers are to believed we have another 500,000 immigrants on their way over the next 4 years, ok i read that in the newspaper i admit but even broken clocks are right once a day and if past experience is anything to go by they could be right.

 

[RogueHanger]

Do you really believe that any of these parties will hold a referendum if relected? do you believe in the tooth fairy as well.

No The Conservative/Labour parties have never discussed holding a referendum, without conditions changing, if relected.
The Lib Dems/UKIP have never discussed holding a referendum.
I assumed that the second question was rhetorical 'cos you knew the answer really. Didn't you?

It is significant that they wont hold their referendum until they are relected, didnt they say the same thing before the last election,

No.

Once they get back in it will be the same old excuse "that a week is a long time in politics"i.e. "circumstances have changed blah, blah", "a referendum is no longer appropriate blah, blah, but don't worry we have another plan ".

You takes your choice of an established party or a new party that has only divulged a fraction of their agenda.

Apparently if the news papers are to believed we have another 500,000 immigrants on their way over the next 4 years, ok i read that in the newspaper i admit but even broken clocks are right once a day and if past experience is anything to go by they could be right.

But the (24 hour) clocks are only ever right for one second every day, that leaves 23 hours, or 1439 minutes, or 86,399 seconds that they are wrong every day.
Now if we consider a clock/calendar, they are only ever right once in eternity.
So, are you going to believe that today is your lucky day, punk! (Clint Eastwood)

 

[Big Tone]

As long as people realise exactly what they are voting for:
Nige/UKIP are a far right wing liberalist party, further right than our Maggie was. Possibly verging on xenophobia. (remember Hitler's rise in popularity in the '30s? )
Do you understand what that means?
At the best, it means a noticable reduction of government in peoples lives.
This would entail reduction in the welfare state, possibly to the point of increasing the reliance on private insurance for those things you now take for granted.
It would undoubtedly mean the reduction or direct aggression against unions.
It would mean increased privatisation of governmental functions.

This is why UKIP appear to be a one-trick pony. They are fully aware that if they divulged their true colours supporters would run a mile. The crazy thing is that a lot of their support is from over-50s and dissillusioned labour supporters! Can you imagine the furore that would ensue if UKIP gained power? Their support would vanish and government would be thrown into turmoil with an unpopular party in power for as long as they could hang on.

I’m sure you’re right RougeHanger. Although, with respect, I’m not convinced you can extrapolate the outcome the way you have. So here’s my take..

Given that no Party is ‘all things to all people’, those who vote have to make a simple choice as to which is the least unpalatable. However, since all three main Parties have their heads in the PC sand over Europe, (opening flood gates, clueless about exactly who is coming in or indeed what our true population is), what Nigel has done is given the main runners a bloody nose and long overdue wake up call.

God no, I wouldn’t want Nigel in power at the helm. But I’m sure glad his like are around to say what others are too cowardly, (or fear political suicide), to say...

In other words it's that ole nugget that if you are unelectable you can speak the truth. I'm glad Nigel trounced Cleg yesterday and effectively called him a liar! If the cap fits, I wish politicians would say it more often.

 

[RogueHanger]

I’m sure you’re right RougeHanger. Although, with respect, I’m not convinced you can extrapolate the outcome the way you have.

I'm just extrapolating the probable policies of a right-wing liberalist party, which is what UKIP is.

So here’s my take..

Given that no Party is ‘all things to all people’, those who vote have to make a simple choice as to which is the least unpalatable. However, since all three main Parties have their heads in the PC sand over Europe, (opening flood gates, clueless about exactly who is coming in or indeed what our true population is), what Nigel has done is given the main runners a bloody nose and long overdue wake up call.

The wierd thing is that labour and conservative representatives have defected to UKIP. Conservative defections are understandable, i.e. not sufficiently right-wing. But Labour defections, from the left wing to the right wing??? What's that about?
Nigel's repeated statements about not being anti-immigration, yet:

Nigel Farage's anti-immigration message is winning converts in Britain. ....
But UKIP plays on some of the same grievances, and Farage has spoken derisively of a Britain that’s been rendered “unrecognizable” by mass immigration over the past decade.

On Wednesday he said Britain’s open borders with the rest of the EU had “left a white working class effectively as an underclass. And that I think is a disaster for our society.”

Research shows that UKIP supporters tend to be whiter, poorer and less educated than the national average. Farage, a former commodities trader who worked for two decades in London’s financial sector before turning to politics, has proved skillful at channeling the anger of those Britons who suffered through a prolonged economic downturn, and are now seeing few benefits even as growth picks up.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world..._949fa2be-8691-11e2-9d71-f0feafdd1394[/QUOTE]
What does he suggest he's going to do about this unrecognizable Britain?
Oh, yes of course, he hasn't said yet!

God no, I wouldn’t want Nigel in power at the helm. But I’m sure glad his like are around to say what others are too cowardly, (or fear political suicide), to say...
In other words it's that ole nugget that if you are unelectable you can speak the truth.

His oratory style actually reminds me of Hitler, who also said it as HE saw it. But was it the truth, in the end?

I'm glad Nigel trounced Cleg yesterday and effectively called him a liar! If the cap fits, I wish politicians would say it more often.

I fear that Nigel will go as far as he needs to shock his audience, supporters or opponents. His character assasinations in the EU parliament provide a clue as to how far he'll stoop.
Just for a bit of entertainment, imagine how Nigel would facilitate our departure from the EU.

My apologies for this late addition. I didn't see the debate last night (blowin' me horn.) and I still haven't.

And he hinted darkly that there could be violence if that doesn’t happen, warning that Europeans will no longer tolerate the loss of national sovereignty that comes with being part of a 28-nation union.

"I want the EU to end but I want it to end democratically. If it doesn't democratically, I am afraid it will end very unpleasantly,” Farage said. “If you take away from people their ability, through the ballot box, to change their futures because they have given away control of everything to somebody else, then I'm afraid they tend to resort to unpleasant means."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world..._949fa2be-8691-11e2-9d71-f0feafdd1394[/QUOTE]
Frightening stuff and perhaps on a par with my comparison of Hitler with Farage. Or was it just a re-hash to the "rivers of blood" speech?

 

[Big Tone]

But how else and what style would you or indeed anyone else who passionately believes in our country, (as he does), put forward an argument without being labelled as he has been? I don’t think it’s possible; not without some passionate effusive finger-wagging, mud slinging and a good dollop of home truths.

If you’re not a vociferous lion you will be lead by sheep, which is what we have under Con-Lib-Labs. I wouldn’t trust Nigel but then I don’t trust the cronies we currently have either. I see first hand what the Cons have done, are doing, to our NHS. (What they are not telling you and the public are not aware of!)

After yesterdays debate there was an educated impartial Nick Robinson-type guy on the radio, (name escapes me now). He also thought Nigel’s argument easily won. I don’t think the pubic can all be fooled all of the time without some substance going with his style. He’s hit on something which has touched a raw nerve to the others, and the likes of Cameron have had to eat humble pie thanks to what he thought was some ne’er do well fringe Party.

I don’t think that you can compare history here RH and say it’s going to be repeated in some doomsday scenario. For all my cynicism and broken dreams, we are far more informed today than we have ever been. (Notwithstanding the plethora of crap out there in the a’ether).

As a generalisation, if you look at other European countries they all have something in common. They look after themselves first and foremost and they can be patriotic without reprisal. We, on the other hand, try and play by the rules and get shafted for it. (Think of fishing rights and what we don’t get away with verses what other countries do get away with).

So I stand by what I say, if we didn’t have a Nigel we would have to find one, if only just to get under the Tories skin.

 

[RogueHanger]

Perhaps some reasonable observations there, BT, but I am woried that the supporters of UKIP do not yet realise just what they are supporting.
Farage was previously a right-wing conservative worker. Quotes taken from wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigel_Farage

Active in the Conservative Party from his school days, Farage left the party in 1992 in protest at the John Major government signing of the Treaty on European Union at Maastricht.....

Not sufficiently righ-wing.

he pledged to end the public perception of UKIP as a single-issue party ......

Something he's not done, except perhaps to give the impression that he's anti-immigration, which he denies.

Farage told delegates that the party was "at the centre-ground of British public opinion" and the "real voice of opposition". He said: "We've got three social democratic parties in Britain – Labour, Lib Dem and Conservative are virtually indistinguishable from each other on nearly all the main issues" and "you can't put a cigarette paper between them and that is why there are nine million people who don't vote now in general elections that did back in 1992."

He's actually gained support by being futher right-wing than some conservatives. Which is why the right-wingers in the conservative party are pessuring Dave Canmeron.

Please note that Farage has never been elected to UK Parliament.

If he was elected to UK Paliament, for which he intends to run, next year, would he campaign fo the re-introduction of homophobic laws? Another of his undeclared policies.

 

[Micilin]

Be careful lads, this is in danger of being an interesting, thoughtful thread.

 

[RogueHanger]

Be careful lads, this is in danger of being an interesting, thoughtful thread.

No worries. I have to go now (horn blowing duties)
I'm sure there'll be some abuse waiting for me tomorrow morning.

 

[Whitespirit66]

No worries. I have to go now (horn blowing duties)

Untitled

• Whitespirit66
• 19 Nov 2010
• 10

 

[jockscott]

Rogue , won't be happy until Madam Merkel is President , living at No10. He'll not rest until we're all driving on the right..

If he was elected to UK Paliament, for which he intends to run, next year, would he campaign fo the re-introduction of homophobic laws? Another of his undeclared policies.

He'll obviously not be standing in Brighton then.

 

[Big Tone]

A fair, true and accurate point is just that; regardless of who or where it came from. To that end, I'll give such recognition and respect irrespective of who or where it comes from, no matter how I feel about the poster, but that's just me...

 

[EFLImpudence]

I have to go now (horn blowing duties)

HE'S A TAXI DRIVER.

 

[jockscott]

I have to go now (horn blowing duties)

HE'S A TAXI DRIVER.

Either that or he's qu**r.