Dangerous?

[mick-uk]

The image quality is not sufficient but.....

As has been mentioned it's a carp boiler.

There are two gate valves on the flow/return under the boiler....so there in no protection against overheating....they could easily be turned off by mistake....remove them.

The condensate pipework and flue appear to be poorly supported. Are they terminated correctly?

The expansion vessel will have considerable mass once it's full of water (through lack of regular maintainance). Normallly supported with the feet...is the wall bracket sufficient?

The expansion vessel/safety valve/pressure gauge does not appear to be connected to the boiler pipework ie it's connected to the cold main. There appears to be a stopcock on the pipework from the Cistermiser to the vessel. Is the boiler open vented? Something clearly amiss.

Poor posistioning of pipework above electrics...water ingress risk.

And check there is an auto bypass valve, the flue pipe is high temperature uPVC etc.



Some serious safety issues....turn off until checked out fully.

hi thanks for such a in-depth review

1. crap boiler I agree
2. the gate valves are actually bleed valves (picture unclear)
3. your right, flue has no support at all, condensate is the same (runs into sink waste).
4. I'd have to check the strength of the fixings holding the vessel bracket.. it did appear very strong.
5. old boiler WAS open vented, tanks have been removed and capped.. now sealed.
6. positioning of electrics... very true.. I think its time to call them back.
7. there is no bypass valve, i checked right along to the zone valve. I'll check flue pipe is hi-temp.. I'd imagine this would be printed on it?

thanks for your help.. much appreciated.

mick.

 

[Gasguru]

They don't look like bleed points....you don't fit bleed points to the lowest point on the system air rises...or it did the last time I checked. You sure they are not lockshield type gate valves?

The waste pipe will not necessarily say "high temperature" just muPVC. ie modified unplasticised PVC as opposed to normal unplasticised PVC.

So what about the expansion vessel etc...it does not appear to be connected to the heating system....V Dangerous.

The bypass is required to ensure minimum flow rates to prevent overheating (especially when TRV's close down), high differential pressures, and allow pump overrun (especially on S plan setups).

 

[mick-uk]

They don't look like bleed points....you don't fit bleed points to the lowest point on the system air rises...or it did the last time I checked. You sure they are not lockshield type gate valves?

The waste pipe will not necessarily say "high temperature" just muPVC. ie modified unplasticised PVC as opposed to normal unplasticised PVC.

So what about the expansion vessel etc...it does not appear to be connected to the heating system....V Dangerous.

The bypass is required to ensure minimum flow rates to prevent overheating (especially when TRV's close down), high differential pressures, and allow pump overrun (especially on S plan setups).

I'll double check them valves, I thought they were bleed valves...

I'll check the pvc pipe...

The expansion vessel was what I thought was a big problem as the filler loop is fitted between boiler return and vessel... cold mains comes in from the top and is connected directly... the third pipe that comes from the vessel is the discharge pipe.
that runs under the boiler to external elbow.
the filling loop has 2 quarter turn taps on it allowing the vessel to be isolated from the system.

the boiler has been wired as a s-plan... not setup for pump overrun. but is the bypass valve still required?

to be honest, I'm going around shortly to tell him to switch the boiler of and contact the installer... I'm pretty sure what's wrong now... and its clearly immediately dangerous.


thanks
mik.

 

[doitall]

If you disconnect the filler loop then you have no expansion

ID it

 

[mick-uk]

If you disconnect the filler loop then you have no expansion

ID it

yup... I thought it shouldn't be there... but when a professional installed the system I needed to know for sure before I got my m8 to call them back.

I'm shocked that something like this can be overlooked

 

[ChrisR]

but is the bypass valve still required?

Absolutely yes, and it has to be a 1"/28mm one not one or two 3/4"/22mm ones.
Almost all fitters leave the ABV out or fit a 22mm one.
C55s are very good at distorting their combustion chambers , which writes off the boiler, if they overheat on overrun.

 

[Gasguru]

The expansion vessel was what I thought was a big problem as the filler loop is fitted between boiler return and vessel... cold mains comes in from the top and is connected directly... the third pipe that comes from the vessel is the discharge pipe.
that runs under the boiler to external elbow.
the filling loop has 2 quarter turn taps on it allowing the vessel to be isolated from the system.

Exactly the expansion vessel is NOT connected to the heating system and is plumbed completely wrong.

Have a look here document page 11.

Yes with S plan it MUST have a automatic bypass.

While you're at it see if the installer is registerd, see if there is any paperwork and a building control notice. I wouldn't bother getting the installer back..he's hasn't got a clue. Contact the local building control and demand they have a look. Youy might get the owner to check the discharge pipe...if the mains is 3 bar or more water will be pouring out the pipe.

 

[mick-uk]

gasguru

Just had a quick read of that manual, appears pump overrun runs automatically on this boiler for 2mins after shutdown! and there's no bypass! it gets better.

it does say the pressure relive valve should be on the flow... its actually on the return as an integral part of the pressure vessel is this of concern?... when the vessel is actually connected correctly.

you'll be happy to know he shut off the boiler, and he not happy as guests will have no hot water as they snipped the immersion heater off!

 

[Gasguru]

You are mssing the point...the relief valve is NOT connected to the return..the incorrectly fitted filling loop is shut off. The filling loop is connected between the relief valve and the return. THIS IS COMPLETELY W R O N G.

The filling loop should connect between the mains water pipework and the heating system. It is only used for initially presurising the system and topping up the system from time to time...after use it is DISCONNECTED from the system to comply with water regulations.

The safety valve should be connected to the flow pipework since this is the pipe that will discharge steam etc if the boiler fails. The vessels are sometimes spec'd to connect to the return since the temperarture is lower and the diaphragm may last a little longer.

There is no point in getting the installer back as he has made so many fundamental errors he is totally incompetent.

I hope an unvented cylinder has not been installed

 

[mick-uk]

I totally understand what's wrong and whats needed to correct. You have confirmed all of what I initially thought...
you have also highlighted one or two other problems that I didn't notice.

regarding my comments RE: the safety blow off, it says in the manual must be connected to the flow... its actually connected or will be connected to the return as its part of the vessel... (once vessel is installed correctly)
I was just wondering if thats ok... I'm sure it will be fine as its designed like that.

Existing indirect vented cylinder was left in place so no fears there.

will corgi be interested in this?? I'll get his number.

 

[doitall]

You have no expansion and no pressure relief valve as is, the system is ID, and if you are Corgi registered you should issue a Riddor.

 

[Gasguru]

I totally understand what's wrong and whats needed to correct.

I beg to differ your questions are proof of this...stick to wiring.

I think you owe it to your friend to advise him to call in a competent heating installer. He's already ended up with a junk boiler and **** poor installation.

The safety valve must be connected to the flow pipework..this is in the regulations. The lockshield valves should be removed or installed such that closing them will not compromise boiler safety ie they are after the safety/gauge/expansion vessel connections

Just because the vessel/safety/gauge is currently connected as one unit does not mean they can't be seperated.

Corgi won't be the slightest bit interested unless the installer is not registered or the installation has not been notified to them or the gas/flue side of the installation is sub-standard. I would advise you get your firend to call them in anyway...there may be several faults you are unaware of.

As I said building control oversee compliance with building regulations and this installation contravenes several....contact them and tell them the boiler is on a sealed system with no safety device fitted....they may show a little more interest.

 

[mick-uk]

Gasguru - ok I understand now... trust me

blow off on flow
pressure vessel on return
pressure gauge near filling loop on flow (correction )
filling loop disconnect
support for flue's
flue waste pipes need checking mupvc
lock shield gate valves need to disappear
pressure vessel support needs checking

all loud and clear!

just to clarify

I often come across installations that are "professionally" installed and often I see things that I personally think are not right.
as im not in the "central heating" trade I cant really say for sure that my thoughts are right. (everyting I do know about CH is self taught)
Thats why I'll often ask for a second opinion, I've asked one or two questions on this forum, and got kicked in the balls more than once.
fact is, call it sad am very interested how everything works, if i see a ch installation I'll study the pipework and try to understand what's going on.
now clearly, my little knowledge that i do have has highlighted a dangerous installation that would have otherwise gone unnoticed..untill its too late.

I do appreciate you and others taking the time out to reply my posts and pointing me in the right direction... slowly but surely I'm picking up what's right and wrong.

I would love have my corgi badge, but unfortunately, financially i cant afford it, i've enquired and £6300 & 6months out of work is a stretch to far...so for me I'll just have to stick to radiators and smelly toilets.

cheers
mik

 

[ChrisR]

lock shield gate valves need to disappear

Not entirely, they can be useful, but should NEVER be between the boiler and the safety prv and EV.
ANd don't forget the 28mm bypass!

 

[Gasguru]

Chris you missed out "never".

Forget the thought of working in gas..the jobs long since had it's day.

It would appear you are going to sort out the installation yourself and dispense with any further checks by relevant authorities...I have reservations about that...you have still not read the manual properly regarding positioning of safety components.

Once you start touching the boiler you are liable. Something here sounds fishy......your "friend" should make his own judgement and you do not have the knowledge to say whether the installation is legal and safe....therefore have the lot inspected and get corgi to check.