Diesels

[opps]

the giant hog trucks are much more an American affectation

due to cheap fuel

I believe it is because the sales taxes on "pick up vans" is much lower than other vehicles. The F series of Fords outsells the next best selling range of cars by about 80%. Americans have (historically) not be penalised for driving cars that "drink" petrol.

 

[Captain Nemesis]

Idiot.

Lets take this one step at a time.

If a big heavy vehicle collides with a car, is the damage it does to that car compared to what it would do if it was smaller and lighter and all other factors (speeds, angles, points of impact etc) were the same

a) more
b) the same
c) less

?

 

[sxturbo]

People are prepared to pay for higher running costs in order to drive a car which is deliberately oversized so that it does more damage to other cars in accidents.

I'm not sure that's everyone's prime reason for a certain size of car.

There are a multitude of reasons why one needs a large car, be it for work, a large family, medical reasons, stature in life

 

[fixitflav]

There are a multitude of reasons why one needs a large car, be it for work, a large family, medical reasons, stature in life

That's true in some cases, but the proportion of drivers with those excuses hasn't changed in the last few years, while the number of big vehicles has increased markedly.

 

[sxturbo]

That's true in some cases, but the proportion of drivers with those excuses hasn't changed in the last few years, while the number of big vehicles has increased markedly.

Cars have got larger over time, but the space inside has not necessarily grown with the vehicle.

Cars have a lot more boxing and padding these days leaving the interiors cramped and the boot size inadequate.

I'm not saying your wrong, just saying its not the only reason. I concur that an awful lot of people like the commanding driving position of an SUV which makes them feel safe, but a lot of these although tall are still small cars.

The ford Kuga is based on a focus for example.

A lot of these "big" cars you see on the road are in fact no bigger than your average family hatchback.

They may look "big" due to their height and shape, but in fact they are not.

 

[Captain Nemesis]

There are a multitude of reasons why one needs a large car, be it for work, a large family, medical reasons, stature in life

Indeed there are.

But if someones reason is

extra accident protection the offer

...

 

[sxturbo]

not at all, most people own cars that are unnecessarily too big and powerful for what they truly need.

Surely it's down to people's own preference as to what they drive.

You can't penalise people for requiring a certain size of car, as someone who has a family and want to go on holiday packing all that gear into the car and roof box I need a bigish car , to cart the pushchairs and and you child paraphernalia need a largish car, I've only got an old Audi A4 estate, and we struggle for space when fully loaded.

Or shall we revert to communism and just all drive round in electric versions of trabant's and Wartburg's?

 

[Captain Nemesis]

Cars have got larger over time, but the space inside has not necessarily grown with the vehicle.

Cars have a lot more boxing and padding these days leaving the interiors cramped and the boot size inadequate.

I'm not saying your wrong, just saying its not the only reason. I concur that an awful lot of people like the commanding driving position of an SUV which makes them feel safe, but a lot of these although tall are still small cars.

The ford Kuga is based on a focus for example.

A lot of these "big" cars you see on the road are in fact no bigger than your average family hatchback.

They may look "big" due to their height and shape, but in fact they are not.

The one on the left has a wheelbase almost the same as the first Range Rover.

 

[sxturbo]

You've chosen an extreme example, the mini is no longer aimed at the everyday person, it has moved up-market, and the original mini would never pass today's crash tests, which is half the reason cars have grown.

A fairer example would be to compare the ford fiesta MK1 to the fiesta Mk7

Or a vauxhall Corsa MK1 to the latest gen.

Or a vauxhall astra MK1 to the latest gen.

Cars have got bigger partly for safety and partly due to consumer demand for more. Interior space hasn't gone up exponentially at the same rate again due to safety but also comfort levels.

My old MK2 fiesta was just as roomy (albeit a darn sight more uncomfortable) as a fiesta Mk5

 

[Captain Nemesis]

Surely it's down to people's own preference as to what they drive.

It is, but I think there are valid concerns about whether someones "preference" for a large 4x4 when they live in a city should be discouraged. They arent sometimes called Chelsea Tractors for no reason.

You can't penalise people for requiring a certain size of car,

Indeed not, and legislating against people just wanting a "big" car is also no good.

as someone who has a family and want to go on holiday packing all that gear into the car and roof box I need a bigish car , to cart the pushchairs and and you child paraphernalia need a largish car, I've only got an old Audi A4 estate, and we struggle for space when fully loaded.

Been there, done that.

Or shall we revert to communism and just all drive round in electric versions of trabant's and Wartburg's?

Or whatever youre allowed to have given your needs.

I drove a Trabi once in Berlin. Interesting experience. Actually quite lively up to city-centre traffic speeds. Cardboard doesnt weigh much And old skills like turning the steering wheel while braking because it pulled badly to the right soon came back....

 

[Munroast]

Surely it's down to people's own preference as to what they drive.

You can't penalise people for requiring a certain size of car, as someone who has a family and want to go on holiday packing all that gear into the car and roof box I need a bigish car , to cart the pushchairs and and you child paraphernalia need a largish car, I've only got an old Audi A4 estate, and we struggle for space when fully loaded.

Or shall we revert to communism and just all drive round in electric versions of trabant's and Wartburg's?

Sometimes our freedoms need kerbed for the good of us all. If we want a habital planet for future generations let alone every other creature that also lives on the planet then we need to change our ways. We now have something like 40 million cars in the UK and not only is that number increasing, we keep making them bigger. It is clearly unsustainable, something needs to change.

I understand where you are coming from, I too quite like my cars and wouldn't be without (even though I know it is unsustainable), sadly we have built our society around them

People are prepared to pay for higher running costs in order to drive a car which is deliberately oversized so that it does more damage to other cars in accidents.

The last part of that is unfair and wrong. My wife has a SUV which is far bigger than we need, but she understandably want a vehicle that is at least as big as an average car, a lot of nutters on the road and she wants to feel safe.

 

[Captain Nemesis]

I understand where you are coming from, I too quite like my cars and wouldn't be without (even though I know it is unsustainable), sadly we have built our society around them

Ditto. I drive what most people would say was a "big" car, a 4.9m long estate - 2WD, no taller or wider than any medium sized one, which I bought because I needed the load-lugging space. Probably dont now, so might go smaller when I replace it. I didnt buy it as a weapon of crash destruction.

The last part of that is unfair and wrong.

Not really

If a big heavy vehicle collides with a car, is the damage it does to that car compared to what it would do if it was smaller and lighter and all other factors (speeds, angles, points of impact etc) were the same

a) more
b) the same
c) less

?

My wife has a SUV which is far bigger than we need, but she understandably want a vehicle that is at least as big as an average car, a lot of nutters on the road and she wants to feel safe.

Then buy an average car.

If she needs a big SUV because she tows horseboxes across muddy fields, for example, fair enough. It may be an uncomfortable truth, but truth it is - if you buy a big heavy car "to feel safe" what you're doing is buying a big heavy car "to come off better than the other party in an accident". Theres a given amount of energy to be dissipated in a crash, by crumpling body work and throwing vehicles and their occupants around etc. If you (a) increase that amount by having a big car, and (b) make the other vehicle, by virtue of weight disparity, undergo a disproportionate amount of crumpling and acceleration then you really are buying your safety at the expense of theirs.

As you say - sometimes our freedoms need curbed for the good of us all.

 

[Munroast]

Ditto. I drive what most people would say was a "big" car, a 4.9m long estate - 2WD, no taller or wider than any medium sized one, which I bought because I needed the load-lugging space. Probably dont now, so might go smaller when I replace it. I didnt buy it as a weapon of crash destruction.




Not really

If a big heavy vehicle collides with a car, is the damage it does to that car compared to what it would do if it was smaller and lighter and all other factors (speeds, angles, points of impact etc) were the same

a) more
b) the same
c) less

?


Then buy an average car.

If she needs a big SUV because she tows horseboxes across muddy fields, for example, fair enough. It may be an uncomfortable truth, but truth it is - if you buy a big heavy car "to feel safe" what you're doing is buying a big heavy car "to come off better than the other party in an accident". Theres a given amount of energy to be dissipated in a crash, by crumpling body work and throwing vehicles and their occupants around etc. If you (a) increase that amount by having a big car, and (b) make the other vehicle, by virtue of weight disparity, undergo a disproportionate amount of crumpling and acceleration then you really are buying your safety at the expense of theirs.

As you say - sometimes our freedoms need curbed for the good of us all.

My objection was your insinuation that someone buys a bigger car specifically to cause more damage, in most cases it is to suffer less damage (not sure about the 'monster truck' idiots)

I also said my wifes choice was "at least as big as an average car," it is a 2wd SUV that gets 60+mpg and weighs in at just under a ton and a half. So no it is not a big SUV. But it is still far bigger than the two of us really need to get from A to B

 

[Captain Nemesis]

My objection was your insinuation that someone buys a bigger car specifically to cause more damage, in most cases it is to suffer less damage

If that was consistent with the laws of physics (it aint), then if 2 HGVs collided neither of them would suffer any damage.

Try extending the idea of having a more massive vehicle for increased safety to a ludicrous extreme, because that makes the problem obvious. If someone driving a 60-ton M1 Abrams tank at 30mph collides with a family car, the tank is going to be undamaged, and its occupants unharmed. The car, OTOH, will be flattened and its occupants smeared across the road.

There is no specific point at which increased mass, or increased disparity in mass, makes those things start to happen - it is a spectrum, a continuum.

Look at the question I posed both you and EFLImpudence (which you both seem reluctant to face).

Or consider this - if you and your family were travelling in a car, then with all other factors such as relative speeds, angles, crash-protective construction, active and passive passenger restraints etcetcetc the same, which would you least like to be crashed into by? A smaller and lighter vehicle than yours, one about the same, or one larger and more massive?

We all know the answer to that, and we all know why.

No - I dont believe that people who choose a large vehicle "to suffer less damage" consciously decide "to cause more damage", but Im afraid that the second is an inevitable consequence of the first, and it is something which people should to face up to.

If someone wants a larger car to buy themselves increased safety then whether they have joined the dots or not, the dots are there, and they are buying their increased safety at the expense of other peoples reduced safety.

 

[fixitflav]

a lot of nutters on the road and she wants to feel safe.

Trouble is the nutters can also buy huge 4 x 4s (not suggesting they buy them with intention of causing damage, but when they drive nuttily they may well do). Perhaps if there were fewer big cars about the nutters would be less likely to buy them.