DIY is not an electrician. No sir, not at all...

[skotl]

I'm not sure what points any of you are trying to make.

I think you probaby are. As it turns out, I'm one of your fans, but the point I'm trying to make (which is oxymoronic, as it happens) is that one needs to take sensible precautions, but the emperical evidence suggests that injury and death through poor electrical installations is relatively rare.

Unfortunately, BAS, that blows my original post out of the water. I'll continue to play safe, and you will continue to warn the incompetents. I reckon that if, between us, that saves a life per year, then it is worth it.

Best regards
Scott

 

[JohnW2]

Unfortunately, BAS, that blows my original post out of the water. I'll continue to play safe, and you will continue to warn the incompetents. I reckon that if, between us, that saves a life per year, then it is worth it.

It certainly would be (worth it), but I fear you may well have to settle for a much lower rate of saving lives than that.

As I wrote earlier, it looks very possible that the number of deaths per year attributable to bad workmanship by electrical DIYers is in 'single figures'. The probability of any of those 'potential fatalities' coming to this forum and, if they do, then taking notice of the advice given by BAS is, I fear, pretty low.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[skotl]

Cheers, John.

Then I wonder what I hoped to achieve with the original post.

I didn't start it with an explicit aim of saving lives. If only... I could wear my superhero T-Shirt with pride...

I would refer to my initial post where I offer thanks, and maybe that's a good way to close the post down. Many contributors on this part of the forum, and other parts too, offer their knowledge to help others and to make their lives easier. They also offer their knowledge to stop people hurting themselves, and others, through their (shall we say) over-confidence.

This has been a fascinating thread for me, especially in terms of what it means to have an online help forum, and even what it means to ask for help.
As the OP, I'm going to suggest that we draw it to a close now. If anyone desperately wants to add to the debate, then let free, but I think we've got pretty much the entire debate laid bare.

Many, many thanks for viewing and contributing.
I'm off to wire three external caravans, one of which has a school woodwork shop, to my lighting ring...

Scott

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Simply trying to put things into perspective - as you are doing even more dramatically by what you've just written.

the point I'm trying to make (which is oxymoronic, as it happens) is that one needs to take sensible precautions, but the emperical evidence suggests that injury and death through poor electrical installations is relatively rare.

I was concerned that you were trying to say that because other things are much more dangerous we don't need to care particularly about electrical safety.

Just as nobody would claim that because 50 times as many people die from smoking than from road accidents then we shouldn't give a stuff about road safety, nobody should try to claim that the rate at which people fall from ladders means that we oughtn't to care about what they do with their electrical installations.

 

[JohnW2]

Just as nobody would claim that because 50 times as many people die from smoking than from road accidents then we shouldn't give a stuff about road safety, nobody should try to claim that the rate at which people fall from ladders means that we oughtn't to care about what they do with their electrical installations.

Indeed. However, it's not about 'not caring'. It's about 'keeping things in perspective' in a world full of risks of widely varying probabilities and thereby facilitating rational deployment and prioritisation of resources (whether on the part of individuals or governments) in attempts to achieve the optimum overall reduction in risks.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Individuals and governments are very different in many ways.

Certainly the analyses you suggest should be done properly by the government when considering where to expend their resources, but individuals doing DIY do not have to make a trade-off between doing electrics safely and climbing ladders safely.

 

[mointainwalker]

but individuals doing DIY do not have to make a trade-off between doing electrics safely and climbing ladders safely.

__________________

They do however have to make a trade-off about undertaking an electrical repair/install and breaking a law presumably enacted to prevent injury when the liklihood may be very very small indeed or having the cost and possibly major inconvenience of getting - and maybe staying at home for - an electrician.

 

[Grizzly]

[ASIDE]
Just because some dictionaries have abandoned all sense of what is right, and have decided to side with the ignorami who think that "electrocution" is just another word for "electric shock" that doesn't mean that we have to join them in the race for the moronic bottom.

You can't be slightly electrocuted, or badly electrocuted - it's an absolute condition - you are either dead or you are not.
[/ASIDE]

Hmmm. BAS versus The Oxford English Dictionary.
Place your bets now.

 

[Space cat]

I've been following DIYnot for quite a few years now, I often look around the Electrics UK forum and something seems clear: The incidence of answers along the lines of "Get an electrician in" has gone up considerably since the arrival of the abominable Part P.

In the days pre-P, there were just as many posts from people with limited knowledge as there are now. They came here looking for information because they wanted to do the job properly - which is laudable. More often than not, they went away having learnt something. Today they're just as likely to be told not to mess with things they don't understand. I wouldn't be at all surprized if some of them muttered something like "Useless t*ssers!" then did the job anyway - badly!

I spend my days fixing linear accelerators (130kV in there and radiation too) but now hesitate to offer electrical advice in case somebody jumps down my throat for encouraging people to do a job for which they're not qualified. I just keep reminding myself that this is a DIY forum.

 

[Stoday]

[ASIDE]
Just because some dictionaries have abandoned all sense of what is right, and have decided to side with the ignorami who think that "electrocution" is just another word for "electric shock" that doesn't mean that we have to join them in the race for the moronic bottom.

You can't be slightly electrocuted, or badly electrocuted - it's an absolute condition - you are either dead or you are not.
[/ASIDE]

Hmmm. BAS versus The Oxford English Dictionary.
Place your bets now.

Hell will freeze over before BAS wins this one.

In1635 the French set up L'Académie Française to protect the purity of the French language from desecration by English. They have finally given up.Click

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Hmmm. BAS versus The Oxford English Dictionary.
Place your bets now.

Yo - I'm under no illusions.

But as I said - there really is no need for the people on this forum to join the Oxford Dictionary's appalling race to be at one with the ignorami.

Yes, languages change,and dictionaries have to reflect that. But "electrocution" is a relatively recent word, and for the vast majority of its existence it meant death by electric shock.

The first person to use it to mean a non-fatal electric shock was wrong.

So was the second, and so was the third, etc.

At what point does a dictionary give up, and start agreeing with all the idiots who don't know what a word means? I don't know, but I'd be amazed if we'd reasonably reached that point with "electrocution". It's interesting to note that the only example of its use to mean a non-fatal shock in the Online OED was from an arts review in the NY Times.

If we are going to start using the standards of foreign journalists to define our language we truly are doomed.

 

[Paul_C]

But "electrocution" is a relatively recent word, and for the vast majority of its existence it meant death by electric shock.

Indeed, the word came into existence as a contraction of electro-execute following the adoption of the electric chair in 1890. As a new term, by association it was soon also being used to mean death by electric shock caused by any means, including accidental.

Thousands of people refer to a socket-outlet as a "plug," but that doesn't make the term correct, and I would not expect the Oxford English Dictionary (or any other dictionary for that matter) to endorse such misuse of the word. And neither should it be attempting to legitimize the misuse of "electrocute." At least my 1977 edition of the OED still contains the correct definition.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I just keep reminding myself that this is a DIY forum.

Can you explain why DIY equates to not doing it properly?

Can you explain why cables installed by DIYers don't suffer from voltage drop and derating factors in the same way that cables installed by professionals do?

Can you explain why their current carrying capacity is different?

Can you explain why MCBs installed by DIYers will operate correctly when the fault loop impedance is too high when they won't if installed by professionals?

Can you explain why a cable buried in an incorrect way won't be drilled into at a future date, whereas the same cable installed in the same place by a professional might be?

Can you explain why if a DIYer exports a PME earth to a building with extraneous conductive parts it won't be hazardous in the way that it would be if a professional did it?

 

[JohnW2]

...but individuals doing DIY do not have to make a trade-off between doing electrics safely and climbing ladders safely.

True, but if they are constrained (e.g. by finances) to DIY some tasks, they may choose what do DIY (electrics, gas plumbing, roof repairs, car servicing etc.etc.),and which to leave to professionals, on the basis of what they perceive to be the activity which puts themselves and others at least risk.

However, that's not really what I was getting at. I was thinking more about those individuals who feel inclined to give advice in an attempt to reduce the number of injuries and deaths due to DIY work (or whatever). If the desire of such people were to maximise the number of injuries/deaths they prevented, they would be well advised to be guided by the relative numbers of deaths/injuries associated with different types of DIY (or whatever) when deciding what sort of DIY (or whatever) to 'target'.

Kind Regards,
John

 

[Space cat]

Can you explain why DIY equates to not doing it properly?

No, because it doesn't. Some DIYers will not 'do it properly' because they don't know how. Others will do it properly because they do know how. Some will start out not knowing how but will ask questions in the right places - like here - until they do.

I suspect that not all professionals will do it properly either, though maybe for different reasons like profit.

Can you explain why cables installed by DIYers don't suffer from voltage drop and derating factors in the same way that cables installed by professionals do?

No, because they do.

Can you explain why their current carrying capacity is different?

No, because it isn't.

Can you explain why MCBs installed by DIYers will operate correctly when the fault loop impedance is too high when they won't if installed by professionals?

No, because they won't.

Can you explain why a cable buried in an incorrect way won't be drilled into at a future date, whereas the same cable installed in the same place by a professional might be?

No, because it might be.

Can you explain why if a DIYer exports a PME earth to a building with extraneous conductive parts it won't be hazardous in the way that it would be if a professional did it?

No, because it will be.

Are you trying to say that DIYers can make just as many mistakes as professionals? In that case I agree, though their mistakes will generally be a lot neater. Sockets are more likely to be put on square and in straight lines. Holes in kitchen cupboards will be drilled, not crudely smashed out with a big hammer. (Oops! Sorry, a plumber did that. ) Damaged plaster and/or wallpaper around new sockets will be made good so as to look like it did before.

Or are you trying to say, in some obscure way, that professionals are permitted to make mistakes - because their insurance will cover everything - but woe betide the DIYer who uses plain green sleeving on an earth wire. (Oops, I forgot. We have to call that a CPC now. )