EICR follow up

[NickB_99]

Hi,

Moved house a couple of weeks ago.
Following the survey back in November, I arranged for an EICR to check out the installation.
The installation has an old consumer unit, fuse wire etc and seems to be the original install with a bit of modification for an extension, some extra sockets etc. The overall rating came back as satisfactory.
Now we're in, I'm considering options in terms of update. I've had another look at the report and have a couple of specific questions on it.

- estimated age of installation is 25 years. The house was built mid 60s. How accurate is this estimation usually? Is it possible to get dates off old wiring etc like you can with new cable? I'd have thought the wiring was original in the main and I'm surprised it wasn't older.

- the overall rating seems to say an unsatisfactory rating arises as a result of c1 and/or c2 conditions. But a c2 condition was identified for 'no RCD protection for sockets and circuits contained in a bathroom'. There are no sockets in the bathroom but there is an old alarm in the downstairs loo and wondering if it was this. Either way, does the presence of a c2 condition in this area mean it should have got unsatisfactory?

I've also noticed one of the bedroom sockets doesn't look too healthy but this wasn't picked up on the report.

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• NickB_99
• 6 Mar 2016

The EICR was arranged through the firm that the estate agent uses for all their lettings inspections so I had hoped they'd be reliable.
Is it worth going back to the firm that arranged it?

I'm trying to work out whether a full rewire is necessary and I've now not much confidence in results I've been given.

Would welcome some advice!

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

If you have Code 1s and 2s, the report could not possibly have come up as satisfactory!
But you are saying it came up both satisfactory and unsatisfactory overall.
It is either one or the other!

The socket is code 1 (cracked and signs of heat damage)
Older cable where not dated, but the style and type of cable and the method it was installed also the earth sleeving could other clues to it's age.
Has the bathroom got suitable supplementary bonding, if so the presents of no RCD protection could be a code 3. if not a code 2.
This would concern electrical circuits entering the bathroom, such as showers, ex-fans lights, shaving points, heaters, not sockets.
Sockets not protected by RCDs would concern other rooms.

 

[Taylortwocities]

One way of determining age is if the lighting circuit has an earth or not. If the earth is missing it will (should have) been highlighted in the EICR.

Lighting circuits were generally not earthed prior to 1966.
The EICR should have included an estimated date for the installation………..

 

[Adam_151]

Hi,
- estimated age of installation is 25 years. The house was built mid 60s. How accurate is this estimation usually? Is it possible to get dates off old wiring etc like you can with new cable? I'd have thought the wiring was original in the main and I'm surprised it wasn't older.

Depends who is doing it as to how accurate the age can be, its quite easy to be within 10 years of the true age, often a bit better. A mid 1960s installation is easy to tell from a 1991 one!. Having a single age stated can be limiting though. I have very often come across an installation which originally dates from the 1960s, has been modified many times since, and substantially re-wired in the late 1990s, however a small bit of the original still remains. One is in a quandry over whether to put 15 or fifty in the box.... I would put "50/15" or "various" and provide more information in the summary

- the overall rating seems to say an unsatisfactory rating arises as a result of c1 and/or c2 conditions. But a c2 condition was identified for 'no RCD protection for sockets and circuits contained in a bathroom'. There are no sockets in the bathroom but there is an old alarm in the downstairs loo and wondering if it was this.

A bathroom is considered to be a room containing bath or shower. A toilet/cloakroom is not counted as a bathroom unless it has either of these. Circuits in bathrooms have required RCDs since 2008. This would warrent a C3 coding in my view. If supplimentary bonding is required (in 2008 the requirements were relaxed, and it is not required if a number of other criteria are met) which it almost certainly will be, then lack of it where conditions for ommision are not met can be a code C2

Either way, does the presence of a c2 condition in this area mean it should have got unsatisfactory?

Yes, any C2 or C1 codes must result in a conclusion of unsatisfactory

I've also noticed one of the bedroom sockets doesn't look too healthy but this wasn't picked up on the report.

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• NickB_99
• 6 Mar 2016

It should have been picked up if it was present/accessible at the time of test. It is unlikely/though possible that it has occurred since the ECIR. However it might have been behind a heavy piece of furniture which could not be easily moved (the limitations section should have wording to cover this situation)

It also looks like it might not be on a proper back box

The EICR was arranged through the firm that the estate agent uses for all their lettings inspections so I had hoped they'd be reliable.
Is it worth going back to the firm that arranged it?

Lettings agencies generally want to pay the bare minimum to have someone to take on the risk transfer.... of course they would recommend them to you... they wouldn't want anything to de-rail the sale and miss out on their commision!

I'm trying to work out whether a full rewire is necessary and I've now not much confidence in results I've been given.
!

You could scan the eicr (cover over the address and the contractors details) and post here along with pictures of the fuseboard and inside a few switches, sockets and light pendants (switch main switch off before opening). We will at least then be able to tell you if its 1991 or 1960s, and whether the results are plausible

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Moved house a couple of weeks ago.

The EICR was arranged through the firm that the estate agent uses for all their lettings inspections so I had hoped they'd be reliable.
Is it worth going back to the firm that arranged it?

If the purchase and the purchase price (I assume this is not a let) was based in someway with regards to the EICR, then I would be contacting the estate agent and asking them the questions.

 

[Iggifer]

Nothing wrong with that socket!

Found this one on Friday....

 

[Taylortwocities]

Found this one on Friday....

What had been plugged into it?

 

[ericmark]

As said there is a series of dates when there were major changes. Rubber cables were used up to the 1960's and during the 60's we also went metric and 1966 the 14th edition required earths on lighting circuits. We started using ELCB's around the 1970's but first one were ELCB-v not sure of the date when these were with drawn and replaced with the ELCB-c latter called RCCB and RCD but only with TT earthing system, I think around 1981 or it may have been 1991 we started to use RCD sockets where they were likely to be used for out door equipment. There were big changes in 2001 I remember going to be re-trained on new rules but can't off hand remember what changed. Then another huge change in 2008 where RCD's were used for near everything and we saw the 100 mA RCD being replaced with two 30 mA RCD's. This year again a big change with fire proof consumer units.

If we look at 1954 wiring and look for faults the first is the rubber which is likely degraded but one we went to plastic there was little to cause degrading of the cable, some did have leaching of the plasticizer but if not touched that does not cause a problem. We clearly had houses without RCD protection for many years but to upgrade only requires a consumer unit change not a complete re-wire in most houses I would expect around a £400 bill but this varies according to how it is done. It is likely going to be your big question RCBO's are more expensive but less likely to trip with no fault. In the main any house will need a new consumer unit to comply with current regulations even if built in 2014 so really your looking at everything but the fuse box.

Clearly that socket needs replacing. What we ask is how good was the EICR? One of the most important tests is if the ring final is still a ring final, then we look to see if there are any unfused spurs from spurs faults there can cause overloading, we also look that there is an earth to lights. After that point it depends on the guy doing the EICR many electrical firms will do a very good report as it can generate work for them, however there are also firms which specialise in doing the report and some times the report is a little lacking, they give the electrician a time for the job it does not matter if he spends 4 hours or 8 hours he is paid by the fixed time and he is given a list of properties so if he is fast he may squeeze in an extra test so giving him more money, it is not called a bonus but it is in real terms and it encourages the electrician to miss items.

However with most properties once the consumer unit is swapped there is very little extra work required to make it pass current regulations unless rubber cable or no earth to lights or some DIY guy has gone daft.

 

[NickB_99]

Thanks everyone for such speedy response!

If you have Code 1s and 2s, the report could not possibly have come up as satisfactory!
But you are saying it came up both satisfactory and unsatisfactory overall.
It is either one or the other!
The socket is code 1 (cracked and signs of heat damage)

Sorry, I wasn't being clear - satisfactory overall, general condition satisfactory. Both in section E.
I've rechecked the pictures of the house pre-sale and there was nothing in front of it. There was a bed in the middle of room and looks like they didn't bother walking round the other side. The socket is actually in the housing next to a wardrobe door.
Only observations on EICR were one c2 and one c3.

You could scan the eicr (cover over the address and the contractors details) and post here along with pictures of the fuseboard and inside a few switches, sockets and light pendants (switch main switch off before opening). We will at least then be able to tell you if its 1991 or 1960s, and whether the results are plausible

That would be great! Yes, will take some pictures and scan/edit when back in work tomorrow.

If the purchase and the purchase price (I assume this is not a let) was based in someway with regards to the EICR, then I would be contacting the estate agent and asking them the questions.

The price was related - if it had come back unsatisfactory I would have renegotiated my offer a bit.

 

[Iggifer]

Found this one on Friday....

What had been plugged into it?

Unfortunately, not a clue. It was in a semi abandoned flat that had been temporarily occupied by some opiate fans, so literally could have been anything.

 

[Adam_151]

The price was related - if it had come back unsatisfactory I would have renegotiated my offer a bit.

There is, with condition reporting, scope to put a certain spin on things with the summary, the report does have to be true to the condition of the installation but choice of wording can have a big effect in the summary.... consider a early 1960s installation, pvc/pvc cable, no earth to the lights, very few sockets, but all plastic fittings, wylex re-wireable board, bonding absent, perhaps a little bit of dodgy DIY work, perhaps in the garage.

OPTION 1:

"This installation dates from the 1960s, and while it does not meet the requirements of the current revision of BS7671, is generally sound in nature, some remedial works such as replacing the consumer unit, installing main protective bonding and attention to a small number of poor quality unprofessional DIY works are required in order to gain a satisfactory condition. We advise that the next inspection and test is carried out in five years time"

OPTION 2:

"This is an aged installation... being in the range of between 50-60 years old, it falls short of meeting the current BS7671 in a number of areas, attention is drawn to the lack of protective conductor in the lighting circuit which means that class 1 fittings must not be used unless the lighting circuits are re-wired to include such a conductor. The installation also has a fuseboard which does not include the required RCD protection and is also suffering from lack of main protective bonding, poor quality DIY works as well as having a small number of points which are likely inadequate for the number of appliances in a modern home. While repairs could be addressed as individual remedial works to address the issues found, this would still leave an installation which is rapidly approaching 60 years of age. We recommend that if significant re-decoration is planned than the oppertunity should be taken to completely rewire this property as this will then result in a brand new installation which will provide many years of satisfactory service"


The thing is, both are correct, for the installation I outlined, a re-wire would be sensible if someone is moving in with the plan of re-decorating, new kitchen, new bathroom etc. But you could patch the old installation up to a satisfactory standard.... you might end up a few extension leads and have to refuse to fit the fitting from ikea though.

 

[NickB_99]

You could scan the eicr (cover over the address and the contractors details) and post here along with pictures of the fuseboard and inside a few switches, sockets and light pendants (switch main switch off before opening). We will at least then be able to tell you if its 1991 or 1960s, and whether the results are plausible

Some pics
Upstairs light

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• NickB_99
• 6 Mar 2016

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• NickB_99
• 6 Mar 2016

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• NickB_99
• 6 Mar 2016

Upstairs single socket on landing

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• NickB_99
• 6 Mar 2016

Distribution

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• NickB_99
• 6 Mar 2016

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• NickB_99
• 6 Mar 2016

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• NickB_99
• 6 Mar 2016

Also found another socket in lounge that looked a bit damaged

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• NickB_99
• 6 Mar 2016

I'll try to see if I can manipulate the EICR PDF report today for upload.

The other thing worth mentioning is that from talking to the firm who setup the EICR, it had to be done over two days, the vendor was not being co operative with the power being shut off for long periods as he was trying to do some work at the same time!

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Found this one on Friday....

What had been plugged into it?

Tim Peaks

 

[oldbutnotdead]

Those Henley blocks look amusing. And the cables running from them to that metal isolator look rather undersized, as does the bit of T & E coming out the top of it (all only protected by the main supply fuse). Be interested to see what the EICR has to say about them

 

[333rocky333]

Not sure them mem boards were around in the 90's id quess nearer late 70's, i think unswitched sockets and 2 core red were a 70's thing too, id say theres room for improvement from what you show

That label on the switchfuse, is there a phone number, the area code sometimes dates the label