Electrical Certificate and My electrician

[mpooley]

Hi all
I'm not sure how I should react to my electrician who has done the job and been paid but when i rang him a week later to ask where my certificate was, told me that I 'Technically ' didn't need one ! and that if I want one he will have to get another guy to sign it off for me at a cost of £150.00.

The building regs people are asking me to show my certificate for the work before they will sign off on the Regs.

I have told him that I assumed he would supply the certificate in with the quoted price but he says he didn't and basically he wont do it unless I pay the extra.

Is this normal practice?

thanks for any help

Mike

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

All electrical work requires a certificate, your electrician has a legal duty to prove the work he has done is safe and this can only really be done by inspection, tests and recording the satisfactory results in a certificate.
What work was exactly undertaken?

And it is not normal practise to ask/demand additional payment for certification.

 

[mpooley]

Hi Thanks for reply.
I have had my garage converted to an office and he moved the consumer unit (a bit) and added about 14 sockets and 15 down lights

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Okay so that work would require notification to building controls, so I assume their involvement is because the electrician is not a member of a domestic electrical scheme? Do you know if he is? As there are routes you can take to make a complaint to them about his behaviour, also did you get a written quote for the work?

 

[mpooley]

He apparently is not a member of a domestic electrical scheme as he has got to get someone else to sign it off for him.
Foolishly I did not get a written quote as he is a "friend" of my nephew.
He is an electrician though! who works for a local company, He did my work on weekends.

Read more: //www.diynot.com/diy/threads/electrical-certificate-and-my-electrician.436575/#ixzz3d1UiLNi5

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Regrettably as you did not get a written quote, it would be hard to prove what he agreed to do. But under part p of the building regulations, the installer has a legal duty to prove they have taken reasonable precaution to prevent harm/injury and they need to prove they have done this.
I would firstly put a bit of pressure on them regarding his legally responsibility and tell him you are considering taking legal advice, possibly leading to a small claims against them, it may frighten him enough to produce the document you require. I would also make building controls aware of the electricians unwillingness to produce the cert.
I don't understand why he has to get someone else to sign off the work? Has this part of the work been applied for, to building controls, as they would sign the work off, if an application has been made.

 

[Lectrician]

Read more what? You've linked to this same thread?

You've had the electrical work done on the cheap by an electrician who works for a registered company, but doing the work on his own, not through the company, in his own time, cash in hand.

The work may be fine, but as its a PJ type job, certification was always going to be an issue.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

I have previously worked for a company and done private work, never had a problem with issuing certs, so don't understand why the installer has not! Unless does not know how to fill one in?

 

[Lectrician]

Sorry, yes, any electrician can fill in a certificate for a job, but can't notify the BCO if its notifiable through the portal.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Anybody can make an application to building controls, there is no law to say if you are an employee of a company, you cannot apply for notification of work. But we need to know if the property owner made this application, as it seems building controls are involved in some way.

 

[Taylortwocities]

Indeed. Can mpooley tell us if you opened a building notice with the LABC in respect of the office conversion?
Did you tell building control that the electrical installation would be done by a registered electrician?
If (as it seems likely) he is not a member of a CPS scheme, then LABC would have wanted to insect the installation at various stages. It would seem that they would be prepared to accept an installation certificate in this respect. ALL electrical work should be accompanied with an installation certificate. It IS (quote) normal practice.

 

[ericmark]

There are five certificates which are used when electrical work has been carried out.
1) Minor Works Certificate (MWC) this is required under the regulations for small electrical jobs who ever and where ever they are done.
2) Installation Certificate (IC) this is required when a new electrical circuit is created under the regulations when issued a Minor works is not required.

So one of the above for all electrical work and has to be issued by person doing the work no one else.

3) Electrical installation condition report (EICR or PIR) these should not really be used for new work but where the person doing the work has for example died before either a MWC or IC have been completed are often accepted as an alternative. Where some one has done some DIY then the Local Authority Building Control (LABC) will often accept an EICR from an Electrician they select.

All above are NOT law but can be used in a court of law and have been where some one has died to show who made the error. It is in the interests of the Electrician to issue these as they show the condition when he left the job so anyone fiddling with his work could be shown as such and he is unlikely to be held responsible for any fiddling.

4) Completion Certificate these are issued by the local authority often on the basis of what has been written on the MWC, IC, or EICR.
5) Compliance Certificate these are issued by the scheme provider on the basis of what has been written on the MWC or IC.

The latter two are legal requirements for some work but neither is issued by the Electrician and there is some cost involved.

The nasty bit to my mind is it is the "Owner" who is responsible for either selecting a scheme member electrician or informing the LABC that work is to be done which requires that notification although with the latter normally the tradesman will do it for the owner it is still the owners responsibility to ensure it is done. As a result it is illegal for anyone to claim to be a scheme member when they are not.

Any electrician should know that the owner will require a MWC or an IC to present to the LABC for either new circuits or work in the special areas and it should be an automatic process to provide them. Since the LABC do not operate a permit to work system the electrician has to take the word of the owner as to when he can proceed and may not personally have any contact with the LABC. As a result an electrician could at the end of a job issue a MWC or an IC and claim he was unaware the LABC had not been informed. However not to issue a MWC or an IC is admitting he was aware the LABC had not been informed. Another reason for issuing a MWC or an IC.

There is no cost involved in issuing a MWC or an IC so the only reason not to issue them is where the electrician knows he has not complied with the rules. So where I am involved with electricians working on my mothers house when I get the MWC or an IC I only give it a casual glance but where they don't automatically issue one then I start going through the work with a fine toothed brush as I expect there must be a good reason for not issuing the paperwork. Last one I found the new socket fitted did not have RCD protection actually installed by the county council as well you would have thought they would use good electricians.

 

[ericmark]

Indeed. Can mpooley tell us if you opened a building notice with the LABC in respect of the office conversion?
Did you tell building control that the electrical installation would be done by a registered electrician?
If (as it seems likely) he is not a member of a CPS scheme, then LABC would have wanted to insect the installation at various stages. It would seem that they would be prepared to accept an installation certificate in this respect. ALL electrical work should be accompanied with an installation certificate. It IS (quote) normal practice.

When I did work in my mothers house once the building inspector was satisfied I had the skill required on the only site visit he made when I took over the work that was it, he was never seen again. I submitted the installation certificate to council and the completion certificate arrived in the post.

Had I dealt with LABC on a regular basis it would seem likely if a house holder was to tell the inspector I was doing the work he would not even visit. With a unskilled worker then yes he will make many visits and what to see each stage but not where he trusts the electrician in question he just collects his £100 plus vat and rubber stamps the job in same way as scheme providers do not check every job their electricians do.

We are told on here that there is a tick box on the paperwork but when we went through LABC we did not complete any paperwork other than the installation certificate.

Is is normal practice for cowboy electricians not to put their name to their sub-quality workmanship so in the main no certificate means shoddy work.

 

[OwainDIYer]

He is an electrician though! who works for a local company, He did my work on weekends.

So probably without being covered by any insurance, and possibly not declaring the income.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

The building regs people are asking me to show my certificate for the work before they will sign off on the Regs.

As TTC asked - when you applied for Building Regulations approval, what did you say would be the way, or what did you by default allow them to assume would be the way, you would ensure that the electrical work complied with Part P?

This is important, as is what you then actually went and did, if that was not the same as what you told them, as it's all going to affect how much of a bind you are in with Building Control and what sort of certificate you need from the electrician.