EU unhappy with astrazeneca

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

there is no conjecture with regards what they told the EU at point of contract,

There was disagreement.
The EU said one thing and AZ said another. UK also refuted AZ's assertion.

hence why best efforts was termed a number of times throughout the contract.

That is also open to interpretation.
Did the 'best efforts' refer to producing the vaccine in EU, or to supplying the vaccine on due contracted dates?
AZ have moved ion that issue, so one makes one's own deductions.

its also not conjecture when its written in the contract that the upfront payment is for gearing up to meet the deadline

I've not seen that. Perhaps you'd be good enough to provide the link to your source.
But it has little relevance. A forward future order payment may contain such arrangements. The EU contract payment would still be equally applicable as UK payments, especially if there was no priority order (and there wasn't, or there was, but there wasn't ) in the contract.
In addition, if EU's forward payments was used to gear up the EU's supply, but that supply was diverted to another customer, then there is some skulduggery going on.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

EU news: Ireland could quit bloc as EU disrespect now clear - ex-diplomat | Politics | News | Express.co.uk
They finally get it! Ireland could quit bloc as EU disrespect now clear - ex-diplomat
URSULA von der Leyen's swiftly aborted bid to blockade vaccine imports from Northern Ireland has left Dublin "in shock" and fuelled growing euroscepticism within the Irish Republic, a former diplomat has said.
...
And Ray Bassett said the entire episode merely emphasised how expendable Ireland was in the eyes of eurocrats in Brussels. On Friday, the European Commission, led by President von der Leyen, announced it was triggering clauses in the Northern Irish Protocol to prevent COVID-19 vaccines from moving across the open border from Ireland to Northern Ireland.

Hours later, after vehement protests from London, Belfast and Dublin, the EU issued a statement pledging the Protocol, designed to keep the border open, would not, after all, be affected.

However, should vaccines and active substances move toward third countries and out of the bloc, it would use “all the instruments at its disposal”, it warned.

Mr Bassett, Ireland’s former ambassador to Canada, Jamaica and the Bahamas, told Express.co.uk: “The Irish establishment is in shock by the whole episode.”

Taoiseach Micheal Martin, in particular, had appeared to be “completely deflated” by the developments, seeming “very downbeat” in conversation with the BBC’s Andrew Marr on Sunday, Mr Bassett said.

He added: “Irish political figures are showing understanding in public but in private they are deeply troubled by the Commission's actions.

“The image of the EU, and in particular Ursula von der Leyen, has taken a very bad knock in Ireland.”

Irexit threat: EU nightmare as Irish politicians draw up plan to leave Brussels 'bullies'
Ray Bassett, a former Irish Ambassador and Good Friday Agreement delegate, has said it is now time for Ireland to leave the Brussels-led bloc. Dr Bassett said that the "EU bullies" had "the hallmarks of an empire" as he urged Ireland to shift its trade towards the US, Canada and the UK instead of the EU.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...-Brexit-European-Union-referendum-news-latest​

Surprise, surprise.

 

[Trazor]

I've given you the definition. Are you disagreeing with the definition provided, or presenting your interpretation of that definition?
A conjecture is an inference, a deduction based on the available facts. Of course they're incomplete, otherwise it would no longer be conjecture. But the available information points to the conjecture being probable.

My definition was from any English dictionary you wish to check.

Your definition is your opinion only.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

My definition was from any English dictionary you wish to check.

Your definition is your opinion only.

Mine is from:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/conjecture

Granted it's American, but I don't think we'd drawn that far apart.

from the Cambridge dictionary:

to guess, based on the appearance of a situation and not on proof:​

Well if it was based on proof, it wouldn't be conjecture, would it.
Fact-based conjecture is conjecture supported by the facts.

 

[fillyboy]

UK stockpiles Covid vaccines for next year with 40m extra Valneva doses (but EU blunders again with no orders) | Evening Standard

UK stockpiles Covid vaccines for next year with 40m extra Valneva doses (but EU blunders again with no orders)
The deal boosts the total number of doses on order by the UK to 407 million

Britain stormed further ahead on vaccine preparations today by securing another 40 million doses from a French firm – and became the first country in the world to announce it is stocking up on Covid jabs for next year.

The deal with Valneva boosts the total number of doses on order by the UK to 407 million, enough to deliver to dose everyone in the country more than five times over.

With deliveries from Valneva timed to run from summer 2021 into 2022, the announcement sent a powerful signal that Britain now expects vaccinations against coronavirus to be an annual necessity, especially for vulnerable and elderly groups.


Prime Minister Boris Johnson told the Standard: “This is a promising vaccine and if approved by our regulator, I’m confident that with these additional doses as well as our existing pipeline, the UK will be able to protect our citizens next year and beyond.”

David Lawrence, a Scottish executive at the French firm, urged the EU to act quickly, telling Today: “We have got to book slots with suppliers who are giving us key components. The supply process isn’t something to switch on and off over a few weeks.”

Britain’s success in securing supplies will do nothing to allay the pressure on European Commission president Ursula Von Der Leyen whose team is under criticism from the 27 EU member states for bungling the bloc’s access to vaccines.



* Prayers were said for the recovery of Captain Sir Tom Moore, the 100-year-old Second World War veteran whose charity walks inspired the nation. He was admitted to hospital with breathing difficulties after testing positive for Covid-19.

* Health Secretary Matt Hancock will hold a press conference this afternoon to trumpet the landmark completion of offering all care home residents in England a vaccination.

 

[Trazor]

Mine is from:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/conjecture

From your link....

Definition of conjecture
Inference formed without proof or sufficient evidence.

Therefore it's no longer conjecture , once sufficient proof or evidence is supplied, it's fact.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Fact based conjecture........................Oxymoron's rule OK.

If it fits the facts, it's fact-based conjecture.

Definition of conjecture

1a: inference formed without proof or sufficient evidence
b: a conclusion deduced by surmise or guesswork
c: a proposition (as in mathematics) before it has been proved or disproved​

I've given you the definition. Are you disagreeing with the definition provided, or presenting your interpretation of that definition?
A conjecture is an inference, a deduction based on the available facts. Of course they're incomplete, otherwise it would no longer be conjecture. But the available information points to the conjecture being probable.

From your link....

Definition of conjecture
Inference formed without proof or sufficient evidence.

Therefore it's no longer conjecture , once sufficient proof or evidence is supplied, it's fact.

Cor blimey, I do think you've got it!
If it fits the facts, it's fact-based conjecture, i.e. conjecture based on the available facts.
If it wasn't based on the available facts, it wouldn't be conjecture.

 

[fillyboy]

Good job the EU doesn't have a red button. Oops, sorry that was a mistake.

 

[motorbiking]

Supposing the annual programme required of two injections. And supposing the vaccine has no best-before-date, what is 1 billion divided by 120 million, to arrive at the number of years supply the UK now has. And will all those vaccines be used before the best-before-date?
I think you'll need a mind to realise the potential for a vast waste, and to mentally calculate that.
Unless, of course the purchase is for future supply of vaccines, and there is a built in clause that UK has priority over the supply in case of any shortfall?

You need to think of it like a pipeline of prospects for a business. In the vaccine game at least 90% fail, so its not "buying up" its backing as many horses as possible in the hope at least some make it.

 

[fillyboy]

You need to think of it like a pipeline of prospects for a business. In the vaccine game at least 90% fail, so its not "buying up" its backing as many horses as possible in the hope at least some make it.

We had a score each way on the whole field while the EU put a ton to win on a horse called 'Sanofi', which turned out to be a donkey with 3 legs.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Precisely, and the EU wanted some more assurance than the EU before gambling.

It's more appropriately called gambling. Some governments are more prone to it than others.

You need to think of it like a pipeline of prospects for a business. In the vaccine game at least 90% fail, so its not "buying up" its backing as many horses as possible in the hope at least some make it.

I don't think we're far apart on our opinions.
We'll never know how many the UK has gambled on and lost.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

We had a score each way on the whole field while the EU put a ton to win on a horse called 'Sanofi', which turned out to be a donkey with 3 legs.

A vaccine with adjuvant based on recombinant protein
This vaccine is produced in collaboration with the BARDA (Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority) in the United States and with GlaxoSmithKline (GSK) which provides its recognized adjuvant. This proven technology makes it possible to industrially produce very large quantities of antigens, the proteins injected to stimulate the response of the immune system against the virus.
https://www.sanofi.fr/fr/Actualites/notre-reponse-a-la-covid-19​

If you have this symbol in the top right corner of your browser,

you can translate the website easily.
The concerns are exactly the same concerns as the AZ vaccine, i.e. the efficacy in older participants. The difference is Sanofi are modifying their trials to accommodate those concerns. AZ did not, and have not.

 

[ajohn]

You need to think of it like a pipeline of prospects for a business. In the vaccine game at least 90% fail, so its not "buying up" its backing as many horses as possible in the hope at least some make it.

100% true - same problem all over - not enough and the EU have ordered a number as well.

From a media point of view and some one here bring the strawmen out. There is lots and lots of it about.

Even the S Irish PM isn't upset about what the EU did just logical about it. Strawmen are far more interesting. His country have done very well out of Brexit due to it being seen as an easy route into the EU. That even though their debt levels would indicate other problems before covid cropped up.

 

[sxturbo]

There was disagreement.
The EU said one thing and AZ said another. UK also refuted AZ's assertion.



That is also open to interpretation.
Did the 'best efforts' refer to producing the vaccine in EU, or to supplying the vaccine on due contracted dates?
AZ have moved ion that issue, so one makes one's own deductions.



I've not seen that. Perhaps you'd be good enough to provide the link to your source.
But it has little relevance. A forward future order payment may contain such arrangements. The EU contract payment would still be equally applicable as UK payments, especially if there was no priority order (and there wasn't, or there was, but there wasn't ) in the contract.
In addition, if EU's forward payments was used to gear up the EU's supply, but that supply was diverted to another customer, then there is some skulduggery going on.

i was referring to best efforts to produce the vaccine by a given date, which is why they started to scale up production 6 months ago.

your being obtuse for the sake of it, large sections of the contract have been posted on here, and you can read it on the EU's website. I've got the bookmarked version saved on my computer where the idiots at the eu left the book marks on that tells you what all the redacted statements are.

 

[transam]

Then don't present it as your own opinion.
Present the opinion of those that you are reporting, supported by appropriate links.

take it up with the BBC himmagin

they have a complaints procedure

let us know how you get on