EV Charging from a 13A Socket

[Adam_151]

The signup process for Agile really left me wondering. I submitted it, got no feedback at all then 2 weeks later, an email saying that I will be on it from the previous midnight if I click to accept the terms.

I had a similar E-mail, but it arrived the next morning (Saturday). I'd had smart meters installed on the friday afternoon, chap finsihed about 5pm, I clicked to change over to agile straight away, expecting to have to ring them to follow it up on the Monday morning, but I got a email next morning saying I was on it from the start of Saturday at midnight if I clicked accept. I had asked them when booking the smart meters if I could start the tariff switching process in advance of having meter change so any waiting happened concurrently, but was told that wasn't possible and as it turns out wasn't a concern anyway. I had to call up about a week or so later to get the gas onto the tracker tarriff as I think the sign up for that on the website would move both onto that which I didn't want, but that was no troublem although she did have to go and speak to someone to confirm that it was possible.

Need to find something that warns me proactively of upcoming price drops like tonight's. Suggestions?

I think a lot of folk use apps like octopus watch, but pretty sure you have to pay a subscription. Theres an octopus energy group on reddit that has quite a few suggestions. Personally I'm just in the habbit of checking https://agileprices.co.uk/ in the evening, you can also get the prices out of the octopus app on your phone if you have it (Do you have one of those pink home mini things btw?) but its a little more faff.

My zappi EVSE pulls the pricing from the octpus API, so I can tell it "Charge between x time and y time, if the price is less than £0.z" or "Car will be plugged in between x time and y time, I need z amount of units, get them at the cheapest price" but of course that relies on the car being plugged in and being able to set a defintae rule (which would be the case for someone with a long commute, etc" I don't do enough miles to require charging every day, so I typically just try and charge on the day that looks best and pick a price point that I want it to charge at, and then let it start and stop throughout the night as requiredd. Unless I've got a longer trip comming up and then I tell it how many units I want and it gets them at best price

https://emoncms.org/ukgrid/app/view?name=UKGrid , https://www.carbonintensity.org.uk/ , https://energy.guylipman.com/forecasts?region=C
can be useful for getting an idea of when the lowest prices are going to be, but predicting the future is far from an exact science.

Sometimes to maximise it, you need to get a little OCD about it.

 

[Adam_151]

Bearing in mind that the RCBO must interrupt all live conductors, which will rule out many existing DBs even with spare ways in them.

Things are getting a bit better in that regard I find, A lot of the more common brands are responsing to the demand. Wylex and Fusebox *miniture* RCBOs have always switched the neutrals. Hagers original ADA3xxG series did not, but the newer ADC9xxR ones do. (You have to be caerful to make sure you've been supplied the part number you've ordered). BG IIRC have started doing a neutral breaking 40A RCBO. I think click might be similar? You do have to watch out though, I was talking to a rep from CPN in the wholesaler on a breakfast morning about this once, and he assured me that all their miniture RCBOs broke the neutral, went to confirm it later on, uh oh.... thats not what the datasheet says!

 

[Risteard]

There are RCBO's designed mainly for TT installations which do interrupt both lives, line and neutral, it does not monitor the neutral for overload, but it does switch it.

However when I looked not all consumer unit manufacturers offered them as an option, so this would need looking into.

However it would be a new circuit, so it would need registering, which is darn expensive going down the LABC route, so the electrician doing the work should know themode rules. Which I must admit are confusing. I have fitted many a fork lift charger, and charge my own e-bike from a 13 amp socket, but most of them use batteries under 75 volt, so are classed extra low voltage, and are normally charged within the equal potential zone, but the rules don't seem to say what an EV is!

Is my mobility scooter an EV, it is 24 volt, and clearly an electric vehicle, I wonder if I can use that to get EV charging tariff from Octopus? British Gas have given me an EV tariff, but Octopus seems odd, there are two tariffs with 7 hours at cheap rate, but the one for EV's is far cheaper than the one for storage radiators, so I assume some government help to promote EV's?

Yes absolutely it will depend on brand/range.

 

[Risteard]

Things are getting a bit better in that regard I find, A lot of the more common brands are responsing to the demand. Wylex and Fusebox *miniture* RCBOs have always switched the neutrals. Hagers original ADA3xxG series did not, but the newer ADC9xxR ones do. (You have to be caerful to make sure you've been supplied the part number you've ordered). BG IIRC have started doing a neutral breaking 40A RCBO. I think click might be similar? You do have to watch out though, I was talking to a rep from CPN in the wholesaler on a breakfast morning about this once, and he assured me that all their miniture RCBOs broke the neutral, went to confirm it later on, uh oh.... thats not what the datasheet says!

Doesn't seem to be a 40A device available in that Hager bi-directional range.

Hager Ireland have always had RCBOs which switch the neutral, but they are 2 module devices.

 

[Adam_151]

Doesn't seem to be a 40A device available in that Hager bi-directional range.

Thats one thing that is slightly annoying about Hager, they never made a 40A in the other range either, I think the excuse was something about issues with power disapation in that small a case - but other manufacturers manage it.

I know its not ideal, but a design load of 32A on a 32A device is compliant with BS7671*, so its a compromise I feel is acceptable, I tell guys to get it next to the main switch, and have the next way as a blank if possible, if not, a lightly loaded circuit such as intruder alarm, or upstairs lights.

The Zappi installation instructions actually specify a 32A circuit breaker, so arguebly you have not complied with the reg about taking account of manufacturers instructions if you fit a 40A. I'm not sure what the istruction of other manufacturer's units request

*What do the Irish standards say on the issue?, I know North Amercain ones say the design load should not be more than 80% of breaker rating. So it is clearly something that various depending where in the world you are. I'm assuming the Irish standards are largely the same as BS7671 with a few little tweaks here and there?

 

[EFLImpudence]

Isn't that what the fusing factor of devices takes into consideration?

 

[Risteard]

Thats one thing that is slightly annoying about Hager, they never made a 40A in the other range either, I think the excuse was something about issues with power disapation in that small a case - but other manufacturers manage it.

I know its not ideal, but a design load of 32A on a 32A device is compliant with BS7671*, so its a compromise I feel is acceptable, I tell guys to get it next to the main switch, and have the next way as a blank if possible, if not, a lightly loaded circuit such as intruder alarm, or upstairs lights.

The Zappi installation instructions actually specify a 32A circuit breaker, so arguebly you have not complied with the reg about taking account of manufacturers instructions if you fit a 40A. I'm not sure what the istruction of other manufacturer's units request

*What do the Irish standards say on the issue?, I know North Amercain ones say the design load should not be more than 80% of breaker rating. So it is clearly something that various depending where in the world you are. I'm assuming the Irish standards are largely the same as BS7671 with a few little tweaks here and there?

Myenergi specified 40A when doing their training, even if this is contradicted by the written information. Although in practice it tends to be fine, a 32A protective device running at a full 32A for many hours is far from ideal. 40A is always the better choice for an EVSE running at 32A.

 

[monday]

Total nonsense.

An EV charger requires it's own circuit, usually 32A or 40A, and in almost all situations RCD protection as well.
That circuit starts from a consumer unit or similar - just like a circuit for any other item of equipment.

Some installers may install a tiny separate consumer unit for the EV only, perhaps because the existing one is full or it's so old that parts for it do not exist.
However if there is an existing consumer unit with spare ways where an RCBO can be installed, then that is where it should be connected.

I have now had the opportunity to look at a friend's Ohme installation done by Octopus. As suggested above, a small external CU has been Henleyed off and placed next to the external meter box. The meter box is in the wall of an integral garage; just the other side of the wall (inside the warm(ish) dry garage' is the house CU (2 x CU in fact because, like me, he has had an extra one installed to service an extension) and almost all the old circuits on the non-RCD side of the old (Hager) CU have been transferred to the new CU.

So why put in an external CU exposed to the weather when there is plenty of room on an internal protected CU? Apparently, he was 'not allowed' to use the house CU.

 

[ericmark]

There have been some rule changes and don't think one can use external consumer units any more. Seem to remember something on efixx

 

[monday]

There have been some rule changes and don't think one can use external consumer units any more. Seem to remember something on efixx

Thanks for this, very interesting video. I took away salient points as follows:

- External CU's have the disadvantages you would expect: environmental exposure, risk of impact damage and tampering;
- No rational case has yet been put forward to ban or restrict their use so no changes to the wiring regulations are expected in the near future;
- Installers are using them as a first resort rather than as a last resort for which they are intended;
- Octopus had 'no comment'.

So they can, and are, still being installed. The statement that the installer was 'not allowed' to use the domestic CU sounds like a convenient get out, a variation on 'more than my job's worth'.

 

[ericmark]

The wiring matters report is here it does try to show how the existing regulations and best practices are breached when mounting a consumer unit outside.

As an electrician I have worked with a WMDU (weather proof main distribution unit) many times. Units like this were a common sight, however that did also present problems. Having to erect protection around them when it was likely it may rain while doing work, was often not easy, and I have seen jobs delayed due to inclement weather, as could simply not erect any cover around the WMDU.

Back in the 80's we did a lot of things not allowed today, and the question arises how do you even check if a MCB/RCBO has tripped in the rain without risking getting water into the unit.

Suicide is no longer illegal, but endangering others is, so in my own home, I could put a charger at rear of house, where people only go with an invitation without any real problem, but at the front of the house, where postman, milkman etc walk to reach my door, any thing used needs to be safe for them to pass, including putting hand on car to steady them selves if they slip in the snow.

Anything on the public road, even more thought has to be used, it seems 25 volt can kill a cow, this was stated when many years ago (70's) I was working on portable traffic lights, and the Mullard radar heads used the earth wire as a PEN, the Peak heads were OK, and we had 110 - 0 generators, and the lights were designed for 55 - 0 - 55 volt, so we had to install isolation transformers to be permitted to use the lights. In other words, this is nothing new, the rules have been around for many years.

OK I hope a cow will not wander past my house, badgers, foxes, and squirrels are bad enough. Smaller animals even worse as the cat tries to get them through the cat flap, live, so I am left trying to catch the mouse, bat, or bird they have brought in. And I hope we don't ever loose the PEN, as likely that would cause much of my equipment to fail.

So likely you could use a 13A socket for years without a problem, who is going to snitch? But accidents do happen, where I work we have used an older version of one of these during the gala it derailed, it must be at least 80 years old, so has been used for that long, now we have to justify why we were using it. It should have been a museum piece, but some one decided to use it. And you have same problem, you may only go a month, or you may go 50 years, but anything goes wrong, and then it's too late, even if not due to how installed, but some one doing something silly.