13A socket as EV charger

[davelx]

Having the RCD built in is great if not fed from an RCD feeding other things in the CU, but if it is fed from an RCD in the CU which also feeds other items, the that RCD also needs to be type A,

True - my point really was that a hyper-expensive type B RCD should very rarely be needed, and virtually never in a domestic environment.

 

[ericmark]

True - my point really was that a hyper-expensive type B RCD should very rarely be needed, and virtually never in a domestic environment.

I agree, the 6 mA DC detection and auto disconnect and type A and neutral/earth fault detection and auto disconnect is ample, and in the main using SWA to supply the charging pod there is no real need for any RCD in the consumer unit. The problem arises in the attempt to part install ready, I would have fitted a metal clad RCD socket in the garage and wired in SWA and fed from a non protected MCB in the consumer unit. Or use a RCBO in consumer unit so does not matter if frozen once car charger fitted as feeds nothing else.

However this is a personal thing, and I still find it hard to say what has been done is wrong. Over the years I have either left in, or provided cables for future use, but as time has gone on, I have realised they can rarely be used, as I have not left a detailed plan, the one that comes to mind is my mothers hob, it was changed from an induction to a domino hob because of her pace maker, and the hob isolator was swapped for a FCU, also the 32A RCBO swapped to 16A RCBO, clearly the new owners of the house could rip out the domino and fit one with 4 rings again, but without paperwork how would the installer know it was OK to replace the 16A RCBO for a 32A RCBO?

In the main installation certificates follow the IET example, and with a ring final or a radial we often don't even list how many sockets are on the circuit. I have seen a 4 mm² radial and in the middle 2.5 mm² cable where some one has assumed they were working on a ring final, I swapped the MCB for a 20 amp, but will admit never raised even a minor works, it was only temporary until I could replace the 2.5 mm² cable. Then I left.

So some one fitting a charging point has to work out if the circuit is suitable, and no one has changed anything since the installation certificate was raised, and as soon as he sees the type AC RCD he is likely to say that was never intended for type of charging point I am fitting, forget it I'm fitting all new.

 

[Swwils]

The NICEIC have said that it looks like I have a Mode 1 charging point.

They say " The definition of a mode 1 charging point from BS7671 is as follows;

Connection of the EV to the AC supply network utilizing standardized socket outlets not exceeding 16 amps and not exceeding 250 volts AC single phase or 480 volts AC Three Phase at the supply side, and utilizing the power and protective earth conductors."

Reading here:
https://electrical.theiet.org/wirin...standards-for-supplies-for-electric-vehicles/

It says that mode 1 was disallowed in the UK by a note in IEC 61851?

What a pickle!

 

[ericmark]

Thank you for link, both my electric vehicles are charged from a 13A socket, the e-bike and mobility scooter, both charged in the annex under the main house so the RCBO only supplies battery chargers. It is a type AC although it said type B on the box, clearly meant curve B for the overload bit of the device.

But Mode 2 it says normally around 10 amp in the UK, so it seems to say in the UK Mode 2 is used as it requires things like RCD protection and as it points out

plugs designed for household and similar use might not be designed for extended current draw

The big question is if one has a 16 amp commando socket for keeping the caravan battery topped up, supplied of course from a RCD, could you use this to charge your car? And use an adaptor to 13 amp when you want lawn mower or hedge current, in essence reverse of what I did do, using 13 amp to 16 amp to charge caravan battery?

One of these in the garden could be used to supply all sorts including charge the car, put in some thing like a bird box. But big question is if 10 amp is enough? Nissan Leaf has option of 40 or 62 Ah but it does not give voltage. Seems 192 cells at 3.65 volt so 700 volt. So 40 Ah = 12 hours at 10 amp. I would not expect it would charge 10 amp start to finish so it would be reasonable to assume from flat some 16 hours to charge, what we hope is it is never flat and so 12 hours is enough, it say up to 168 miles, milkman had a van with 100 mile claimed range and it some times did not complete 64 mile round, so in real terms looking at 80 miles per day for Leaf. So in the main a mode 2 charger with a Nissan Leaf set to 10 amp max is good for around 80 miles round trip if it can remain on charge for 12 hours.

Note I am using the published info not experience. We have come a long way since the Bedford CF van

but it is still the same problem, how can you re-fuel fast? The Bedford had a version where the battery was dropped to floor and van pushed forward and picked up a second set already charged. Have we really advanced from 1982?

 

[plugwash]

If you read that link to the IET then mode 1 charging is defined as.

"Connection of the EV to the AC supply network utilizing standardized socket-outlets not exceeding 16 A and not exceeding 250 V AC single-phase or 480 V AC three-phase, at the supply side, and utilizing the power and protective earth conductors."

While mode 2 charging is defined as.

"Connection of the EV to the AC supply network utilizing standardized socket-outlets not exceeding 32 A and not exceeding 250 V AC single-phase or 480 V AC three-phase, at the supply side, and utilizing the power and protective earth conductors together with a control pilot function and system of personnel protection against electric shock (RCD) between the EV and the plug or as part of the in-cable control box."

So a regular domestic socket or a 16A ceeform could be used for both mode 1 and mode 2 EV charging.

 

[flameport]

The NICEIC have said that it looks like I have a Mode 1 charging point.

They are wrong. The charging mode refers to the whole system of power supply, connector, cable and vehicle. Not just the wall socket.

Mode 1 was where a car connected to a 13A or 16A socket outlet using just a normal cable. Rarely used even when it was a thing and certainly not applicable to any modern electric vehicle. Due to the total lack of safety devices, it isn't recommended for use anywhere ever.

Mode 2 is connecting to a the same 13A (possibly 16A) socket outlet using the charging cable for the vehicle, which includes a control box within the cable itself, that box containing various safety devices. It's the cable supplied with the car and usually referred to as a 'granny lead'.
They are intended for short term, temporary use where there is no other option available.

Mode 3 is what most people have installed at their home - dedicated charging equipment with the charge cable either attached to the wall box, or in some cases removeable. The safety devices are usually built into the charge equipment, or in some cases separately, but either way it's all provided in the installed equipment, the cable that connects to the vehicle is just a cable with the appropriate connector on each end. Also installed at many car parks, supermarkets and similar.

Mode 4 is only available at places such as motorway service stations, some car dealers and other places where it's necessary to add a very substantial charge very quickly. Uses high current DC directly into the vehicle. It's the one that can charge 20%-80% in about 20 minutes or so.

What you have got could be used for Mode 2 charging, but as I replied previously, that socket outlet needs to be removed and replaced with proper charging equipment.
The socket is just there because something needed to be put at the end of the cable and a socket outlet was the easiest and cheapest thing.

 

[flameport]

but it is still the same problem, how can you re-fuel fast?

For most EV users, the speed of charging is irrelevant.

Car is parked at home and plugged in.
The next morning it's fully charged.
Repeat daily for ever.

 

[SimonH2]

A 13A socket on the end of a cable as described does not (or almost certainly does not) comply with S722 of BS7671. In particular it does not comply with :
722.411.4 unless the builders incorporated a substantial earth electrode in the system - but really, if they thought a 13A socket constitutes a charge point, then I can't see them having done that. I'd work on the basis that they didn't unless proven otherwise.
722.531.2.101 It doesn't have it's own RCD, and the RCD it is supplied by is not suitable.
722.55.101.0.201.1 I'd lay odds that the 13A socket isn't one of the mythical EV types (it would say on the back if it is).

I would suggest going to your conveyancer and telling them that the documentation provided to you by the vendor was fraudulent, and ask them to write to the vendor asking them to correct the situation OR to refund you the cost of putting the situation right.

The installation will also say (stickers on the CU) who installed it, and you should have some certificates. I would expect that the contractor will be a member of one of the scams, err I mean approved schemes, and you should make a complaint to them as the contractor has done an unsafe installation that does not comply with the regulations - but the contractor will have certified that it does. it will be interesting to see what the scam, err scheme does - beyond trying to fob you off with an excuse.
This latter point is important. The scams are happy to make their PR material sound like you can only get a safe job from their members - but in this case I'd lay odds on this unsafe installation having been done by one of their members.

There's three reasons I specifically say the installation is not safe - and they're the reason for the regs quoted above.
There are failure modes in a TN-C-S system that can result in your earth connection becoming live. Normally, within a house, everything* is bonded together so there's no danger from that. But with a car being charged, it's parked outside (typically) - so having a big lump of live metal where you could be stood on wet ground, or touching other items (e.g. a metal gate post) that are earthed, is a very real hazard.
Also, if the EV charger produces some DC leakage, then it may well prevent your RCD from tripping under normal fault conditions. What this means is that when charging a car, the other circuits fed by the same RCD won't be protected - removing an important level of protection from the house.
Lastly, a standard 13A socket simply isn't rated for drawing that level of current continuously - hence the requirement for a socket specifically designed for that purpose. A standard socket is quite likely to "burn out", ruining what is probably a very expensive charging cable, and being a potential fire hazard.

 

[Swwils]

Thanks for the detailed replies and discussions.

NICEIC are arranging a site visit (when able) as this isn't the only thing I have noticed.

I expect the vendor will just say that because the EIC had been issued then it meets all standards required.

 

[SimonH2]

Until you demonstrate that the standards weren't met - then the vendor is in the wrong. That they subbed to a contractor is not your problem - they can argue between themselves.