Failed PAT

[SUNRAY]

I would not class it as an appliance per se but as it is portable, and most PAT kits come with the equipment for testing them, then I would certainly class them as part of the 'equipment' for test.

In my view extention leads are portable by their very application and they are more prone to damage/strain than most other appliances.

 

[ericmark]

I have always tested lead sets with a PAT testing machine, it is far easier than manually testing, and clearly not part of the installation and they do need testing. They are equipment, but not really an appliance, all needs testing, be it part of a PAT test or EICR does not matter as long as tested.

However so many places I find the PC has a plant number and test label, but all the lead sets have been missed.

 

[crystal ball]

From memory extensions have a high fail rate especially the home made two core variant

 

[JohnW2]

I have always tested lead sets with a PAT testing machine, it is far easier than manually testing, and clearly not part of the installation and they do need testing. They are equipment, but not really an appliance, all needs testing, be it part of a PAT test or EICR does not matter as long as tested. ... However so many places I find the PC has a plant number and test label, but all the lead sets have been missed.

I'm not sure where it originates from, but text identical, or nearly identical to, this seems to appear on many websites related to PATesting (with my emboldening) ...

Portable appliances that need testing include any appliance that uses a flexible cable or plug and socket. This means that if there is an appliance that has a plug that is connected to a wall socket or generator, it should be PAT tested.
Equipment that should be tested include items such as electric drills, PCs, monitors, printers, kettles and larger pieces of equipment such as photocopiers and vending machines. Any cordless power tool would not need to be PAT tested. However, its associated battery charger that plugs into the wall would need to be tested.
Larger, seemingly non-portable items, that nevertheless require testing include such items as heated towel rails and built-in dishwashers. These items qualify as portable because they also plug into a power source.
Power cords to IT equipment are required to be tested separately from the equipment they power as they are held to a different standard. Cable extensions are also tested as they are considered among the most common sources of safety hazards.

Kind Regards, John

 

[conny]

I have always tested lead sets with a PAT testing machine, it is far easier than manually testing, and clearly not part of the installation and they do need testing. They are equipment, but not really an appliance, all needs testing, be it part of a PAT test or EICR does not matter as long as tested.

However so many places I find the PC has a plant number and test label, but all the lead sets have been missed.

One place I worked at had the label stuck on the plug. Those with removable leads, (PC's monitors etc), were often 'borrowed' from another source if one was missing. At other times equipment was scrapped and if the plug wasn't the moulded type it was removed and put into storage, (complete with test label), for future use.
I was not popular with a particular manager for pointing this out and even less so when I was elected safety rep and went round removing all the labels and putting 'quarantined equipment' ones on instead and removing them to a locked room. He soon got someone else in to re-test them correctly.

 

[ericmark]

Portable appliance:

An appliance of less than 18 kg in mass that is intended to be moved while in operation or an appliance that can be easily moved from one place to another e.g. fan heater, desk fan, desk lamp.

Extension leads should not exceed the following lengths:

Core cross section area Maximum length

1.25 mm2 12 metres

1.50 mm2 15 metres

In the unlikely event that an extension lead does exceed the above lengths, it must be protected by a 30 mA RCD (residual current device)

I seem to remember if fitted with wheels 18 kg does not apply. So this

is portable equipment, as fitted with wheels!

I have argued many times about which is an installation and what is equipment. However all needs testing what ever label it is given.

 

[RandomGrinch]

One place I worked at had the label stuck on the plug. Those with removable leads, (PC's monitors etc), were often 'borrowed' from another source if one was missing. At other times equipment was scrapped and if the plug wasn't the moulded type it was removed and put into storage, (complete with test label), for future use.
I was not popular with a particular manager for pointing this out and even less so when I was elected safety rep and went round removing all the labels and putting 'quarantined equipment' ones on instead and removing them to a locked room. He soon got someone else in to re-test them correctly.

In our place, the appliance and the leads are tested. My policy was to ensure the leads had matched current ratings and fuses.

I have said in another post, how the ratings marked on leads vary dramatically. Even cables with the same conductor size may have different marked ratings. And officially the standard IEC C13 connector is only rated at 10A.

Many users don't realise this, and would have 5A rated 0.75 mm2 leads fused at 13A, running a large PSU.
Because it is officially labelled at 5A (even though it will cope with the load), I can't allow it!

All our appliances have inventory numbers and this is what is recorded in the PAT database. The leads would simply be named by appending an 'L' to the appliance number.
...and green labels are stuck on both.

After some user 'Education', the number of spurious and mis-rated leads does reduce year-on-year!

If an item is stored, it's plug will be cut off and marked with a red 'PAT before re-use' label. Harsh, but it saves a heck of a lot of testing!

 

[JohnW2]

Portable appliance:

An appliance of less than 18 kg in mass that is intended to be moved while in operation or an appliance that can be easily moved from one place to another e.g. fan heater, desk fan, desk lamp.

Where did that come from, and what was the context (was iut actually in relating to PATesting?)? As I recently indicated, although I don't know where it originated, many websites appear to have text which includes the following as regards what requires PATesting::

Equipment that should be tested include items such as electric drills, PCs, monitors, printers, kettles and larger pieces of equipment such as photocopiers and vending machines. .... Larger, seemingly non-portable items, that nevertheless require testing include such items as heated towel rails and built-in dishwashers. These items qualify as portable because they also plug into a power source.

I think you might struggle to find a dishwasher, vending machines or 'serious' photocopier which weighed under 18 kg.

The issue seems to be that your 'definition' relies on weight, whereas the above widely-published information about what needs PATesting deines on the basis of whether or not an item is 'plugged into a power source' - and I suppose it could be said that latter is more literally correct as a definition of 'portable' - since even something weighing a ton could be moved around for use in different places (particularly if it were 'on wheels') provided that it could be 'plugged in' wherever it was to be used (rather than 'hard wired').

... and what about something which weighs less than 18kg and is 'hard wired' (e.g. a wall-mounted and hard-wired hair or hand drier), given that neither definition would seem to catch those - are you happy that they would not need to be PATested?

Kind Regards, John

 

[RandomGrinch]

and what about something which weighs less than 18kg and is 'hard wired' (e.g. a wall mounted and hard-wired hair or hand drier), given that neither definition would seem to catch those - are you happy that they would not need to be PATested?

The definitions are from HSE:
https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg236.pdf

When I first started, the definitions were mainly weight based, but now as with many other situations, risk assessments are the main determining factors.

And in an environment like mine, portable appliances are items with plugs! We test them ourselves.

We don't touch hard-wired appliances. They would be tested as part of the buildings fixed wiring inspections.

 

[JohnW2]

The definitions are from HSE: https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg236.pdf

Thanks. It all seems rather vague, given that it starts with:

You must maintain electrical equipment if it can cause danger, but the law* does not say how you must do this or how often. ...
You should decide the level of maintenance needed according to the risk of an item becoming faulty, and how the equipment is constructed.

... in terms of vagueness, the law here seems to be on a par with the one sentence which constitutes Part P of the Building Regs!

The implication presumably is that any apparent list of 'rules' or 'definitions' (even if originating from HSE) are not mandatory but, rather, are merely 'suggestions'/'guidance'? It presumably also means that a "PATest", as people understand it, is not the only way of satisfying the law?

I may have missed it by reading too quickly, but although it contains a pretty clear list ('definition') of what it regards as "Portable and Moveable Equipment", it does not anywhere seem to say explicitly that all such items should be subjected to a PAT - although I guess that is the intended implication. That list mentions nothing explicit about weight, and says that items of "Portable and Moveable Equipment" 'generally' (so, presumably, not always) have a lead an plug.

It answers one of my questions by saying:

hand-held items, such as hairdryers, that do not have a plug but have been wired in (or fixed) are still considered to be portable appliances....

... and it also answers one of eric's questions by including in the list ...

extension leads, multi-way adaptors and connection leads.

... but it then goes on to confuse me a bit since, having previously given a list of items which are "Portable and Moveable Equipment" which includes things like fridges and washing machines, it then goes on to say...

... but large electrical items, such as water boilers that are wired in, are not portable appliances as they are not designed to be moved and would come under the scope of fixed installation maintenance

Apart from the somewhat confusing nature of those two statements (when taken together), what does it mean by "the scope of fixed installation maintenance". I don't think that (m)any would feel that 'hard-wired' things like boilers, domestic appliances, workshop machines etc. come within the scope of a BS7671 EICR - so do such things escape 'inspection and testing' in either the name of a PAT or an EICR? Do I take it that there is some 'fixed installation inspection' (of which I am unaware) other than an EICR that would be applicable?

When I first started, the definitions were mainly weight based, but now as with many other situations, risk assessments are the main determining factors.

That seems pretty consistent with the HSE document, on all counts.

And in an environment like mine, portable appliances are items with plugs! We test them ourselves. ... We don't touch hard-wired appliances.

That would probably be consistent with common sense but does that mean that you go against the HSE 'guidance' mentioned above, that even if you cut the plug off, say, a hairdryer and 'hard-wire' it, it still counts as 'portable'?

Kind Regards, John

 

[RandomGrinch]

The implication presumably is that any apparent list of 'rules' or 'definitions' (even if originating from HSE) are not mandatory but, rather, are merely 'suggestions'/'guidance'? It presumably also means that a "PATest", as people understand it, is not the only way of satisfying the law?

Basically, with a suitable risk assessment an item may not need to be PAT'ted.
Take for example, a server in a remote server room. It will only ever need to be touched if it fails and then only by a small team of trained technicians; they have the only access to the room. The appliance has an expected life of 5 years before it is deamed obsolete and it has passed the manufacturers safety tests when it has left the factory.
The risks of this appliance causing anyone harm, are incredibly low.
If you have a robust enough risk assessment (including a feedback mechanism to record failures, incidents and increase the testing frequency if required), then there really isn't a need to PAT the appliance at all.
This is acceptable to the HSE.

I don't think that (m)any would feel that 'hard-wired' things like boilers, domestic appliances, workshop machines etc. come within the scope of a BS7671 EICR - so do such things escape 'inspection and testing' in either the name of a PAT or an EICR? Do I take it that there is some 'fixed installation inspection' (of which I am unaware) other than an EICR that would be applicable?

I'm afraid I can't answer this. Our institution has a fixed wiring inspection every 5 years. I believe that included the testing of hard wired items, but again hard-wired appliances are deemed less risky than portable ones; they can have a much lower test frequency.

That would probably be consistent with common sense but does that mean that you go against the HSE 'guidance' mentioned above, that even if you cut the plug off, say, a hairdryer and 'hard-wire' it, it still counts as 'portable'?

I know that my risk assessments are robust enough to cover the use, and testing, of our portable appliances with plugs. In a large institution, there is usually a mix of 'trust' and 'not my problem', to assume that other aspects of the legislation have been thought about, by people much higher up than me!
...and we technicians are 'forbidden' from touching the fixed wiring.

The testing of 3-phase appliances did fall into a grey area for us. We didn't locally have the test equipment to test them, but 'Estates' didn't want the responsibility of testing them, along with the fixed installations. Most of our 3-phase items were not moveable, let alone portable!

 

[ericmark]

There was a big problem in the early days. The guy doing the PIR and guy doing PAT would both ignore some items, so where I worked it was if plugged in PAT and if hard wired PIR (now called EICR) but this was an agreement within the firm, it was not a standard set out by IET or anyone else. I would say wires, overloads, distribution units are part of EICR, but any item using the power is part of the inspection and testing of in service electrical equipment which would include things like the lights, which really don't need inspecting, what are you going to test on a light bulb, but would not include the fitting, i.e. ceiling rose that would be part of the EICR which clearly is being a bit pedantic. I think we have always included fluorescent fittings and the like as part of the installation, but there is nothing to say they must be included. It is down to the building manager to decide who does what, and items like vending machines are often under contract and not included.

However we have registers which list all the equipment be it in service or quarantine, so as far as the PAT goes easy, he is given a plant list and he does all on the list, simple.

The same applies to installation, there should be a plan, essential with many installations or you would not know where to isolate to test, and some equipment needs special procedures before isolating, without the plan you could isolate some critical equipment.

The fact that domestic does not have a plan is beside the point, it should have one, even if just for the consumer unit, and labelling is included in the report, so once one has been done once you will have a equipment register and labels. The equipment register was a pain it was never updated, so had to work out where things had gone, be it locked in a cupboard or scrapped.

 

[RandomGrinch]

However we have registers which list all the equipment be it in service or quarantine, so as far as the PAT goes easy, he is given a plant list and he does all on the list, simple.

Yes, but that's not always as simple as it sounds!
When you have multiple buildings on multiple sites, and equipment that constantly moves around, things can get complicated.

My PAT database had 15'000 assets, about 1'000 of which were in my lab alone!

 

[SUNRAY]

Extension leads should not exceed the following lengths:

Core cross section area Maximum length

1.25 mm2 12 metres

1.50 mm2 15 metres

In the unlikely event that an extension lead does exceed the above lengths, it must be protected by a 30 mA RCD (residual current device)

Read more: https://www.diynot.com/diy/threads/failed-pat.580522/page-2#ixzz7B9Vt9R4b

That list causes so many arguements when a brand newpurchase from one of these

is failed on pat before ever being put into service.

It also leads to crazy daisy chains along with all of the stress and strain placed on additional plugs and sockets.

 

[RandomGrinch]

That list causes so many arguements when a brand newpurchase from one of these
View attachment 249437
is failed on pat before ever being put into service.

It also leads to crazy daisy chains along with all of the stress and strain placed on additional plugs and sockets.

Our P.A.Testers had a lead length calculator built in to get a suitable resistance for a long cable.
This was one of the benefits of us doing the testing, rather than contractors. We can use a common sense approach (as long as it's backed by the RA), rather than a contractors 'one size fits all' interpretation of the guidance.
We still, needed the odd trick to get items to pass - Scotchbrite is a Testers friend!