Hidden Electrics

[ericmark]

THESE are the junctions in place at the moment whilst the room is being done....are these considered maintainance free?

No these are not maintenance free. Deep back boxes can house automation devices, be it a wifi connected switch, socket, or relay, so you can access them if there is a fault.

I started with Energenie Mihome, it was a way around the problems of looking after a mother with dementia, and I took them with us to new house, so now some 8 years old, I did expand on what I had, until they started to fail, of 5 smart light switches down to 2, and the 6 sockets down to 4, the 4 TRV heads down to 3 but that was down to carpet fitters. Moved to TP-link for light switches as they are battery powered so no problem with no neutral, the sockets moved to adaptors if it fails, and touch wood non have to date, easy to replace. Only place I would consider using a wifi socket is the outside socket where no room under lid for an adaptor.

Laying out a room is not easy, there are some options like dado trunking and lighting track to be able to move sockets and lights to suit, but in the main once the cables are in, there is little which can be done and keep to safe zones.

Wifi has changed the scene some what, a few years ago fitting cabinet lights in a room was in the main a waste of time and money, as they would in the main need one to walk around the room switching them on or off, to get all switches on one plate was rare, so they soon lost their appeal and I know mine rarely got switched on.

Today I walk into room with a cup of coffee in each hand and say hey google turn on living room light and they all turn on, and more to point time for bed and one command turns them all off. I use Google Nest Mini's but Alexa does the same. And in the kitchen being able to use voice commands when hands covered in flour has to be a good thing.

However it can get expensive, the display cabinet lights were not bought all together, we got the centre one first from Lidi, and tried silly Ikea lights either side, which were not a success. I paid £25 each for lights either side and the centre Lidi ones were not much cheaper. A smart socket adaptor is £10 and it soon mounts up.

Next is lighting track for kitchen, why, well lighting track allows one to get the lights to a new area with out it looking like an after thought, it is an after thought, but does not look like it. One could have power track all along the kitchen counter, plug in where ever you like, but it would be expensive, and all plugs would need changing so can't use items else where.

So the whole home is a compromise, be it lighting, sockets, central heating, I have one socket on my landing just above the book case, with a rechargeable touch plugged in, auto lights with power cut, and has built in PIR so lights at night when we pass it, but if I move the book case that socket will be an eye sore.

So you need to decide what compromise you will accept.

 

[flameport]

THESE are the junctions in place at the moment whilst the room is being done..

Absolutely no need for those or any other hidden junction boxes in a new installation whether they are 'maintenance free' or not.

Its not really the sockets Im trying to hide so much as the cables.

Cables go in the walls.
Sockets of whatever type are located where the equipment that connects to them will be. This could include 230V AC outlets, USB outlets, copper cat5/6/7, coax, fibre and so on.

I am going to have to have some access pannels.

For what? Shouldn't be anything in the walls that requires access.

 

[hamd01]

Absolutely no need for those or any other hidden junction boxes in a new installation whether they are 'maintenance free' or not.


Cables go in the walls.
Sockets of whatever type are located where the equipment that connects to them will be. This could include 230V AC outlets, USB outlets, copper cat5/6/7, coax, fibre and so on.


For what? Shouldn't be anything in the walls that requires access.

Stop tap, under plasterboard charging points, gas stop tap....all need access panels.

 

[FrodoOne]

Thank for. so using the example of a wall mounted ipad....which is powered from a usb cable. Would it be acceptable to run the usb cable hidden behind the wall, to a wall mounted mains socket?

If you want to run ELV cables "within a wall" you could install a "duct".
However, you will still need entrance and exit points.

One way to do this would be to install a "Cable Management Kit"
(such as https://www.amazon.co.uk/Management-HASA-zone-Including-Installation/dp/B0B4JQGTG6/ref=sr_1_6?crid=1YMJR66GYPVV9&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.OZ77RJYa6KLmrAFcFXSyWR4bT8iszCOGgxFWOto29CKxvyJRs1cG1zOXnV2ux1Wdvg-1yjgbXXGKRV8eaXNFj6WlfcyDZs8ZRQUTKQe3Rze6XirmLC4qpPoP9HSOlw0Tsz-m-3D7A29QMgaqCWeyRxqLv1XqXJ-iQo7L5VLmS745GkqTa-D1pmAkDMObC55_SdZxI2XgPZ0LyxWwF2CK_AWMNvhB7p-rqX_E1BLJJHvDMHUN0dXLJJwGpyt-PqoDxPDYJG2cHJpiWNfHQE7SV4AuAFsHSkIp2y8p9S8-F1E.F-6Ac3ojgFRfoqDRVMNldzapekszeVPxR7TBfCWTyWc&dib_tag=se&keywords=tv+wall+grommets&qid=1717133941&sprefix=tv+wall+grommets,aps,397&sr=8-6 )
or
"Desk Grommets",
(such as https://www.amazon.co.uk/Grommet-2-4inch-Plastic-Computer-Office/dp/B09NXC888C/ref=sr_1_8?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.N5DvAIb3N6f2kqCVb1wagCFt3z_DdvHJqLa4DSdsTi7pa_YXUG4N6L1RRd5AEy3s1SQRHvyJmSAahOKGT3oF71NotWB86f8Y3ZKZwGyN4jT4h8DTAGXiB8NE9r_J6zpVDFeguUf1AZOonyVQc7siS01kC8-edReyGks3-dwo8FV90sd3HEZqEX1fc5QjYRPzvYK3lWShX9rV1do-pSZQDoWxR4OCSI2jFDEW1l3Zpp5v_SGe3QjYAm6xpF-eCuUwi7fsw3erSiGNpC86K817N-PC0y4LewU4NrmQzSI_hi8.mL4g7LCdbYXEmDHsUXokfWVa_BMqrt7NZPwRUM_-2b8&dib_tag=se&keywords=desk+grommet&qid=1717133866&sr=8-8&th=1
set in a blank "Wall Plate"
(such as https://www.screwfix.com/p/lap-1-gang-blanking-plate-white/65793 )

Running 230 V plug ended cables in any such "duct" may be a "moot point".
However, the main problem with 230 V plug ended cables in a "duct" is that the duct and the entry and exit points must be large enough to handle the size of the plug.
With a horizontal duct this would require cutting away a substantial part of any wall studs, thus weakening them.

(With a vertical duct there is little problem,
On several occasions, I have used 100 mm * 50 mm plastic downpipe with "Desk Grommets" from just above the "skirting" to/from behind wall mounted TVs to include the "power", co-axial HDMI and Cat-6 cables.
Our "regulations" state that
if a flexible appliance cable can be placed in position and removed without the use of a "tool" it is not a "fixed cable", which applies in the above case.)

 

[FrodoOne]

The main problem with 230 V plug ended cables in a "duct" is that the duct and the entry and exit points must be large enough to handle the size of the plug.

If you use cables with IEC 60320 connectors on the "appliance" end, this may be less of a problem.
(See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_60320 )

 

[JohnW2]

Taylor - I reckon that between us and a few of the others on here we could write a large book of all the ridiculous things we have spotted (or heard folk say) , we could probably out manoeuvre "Ripley`s believe it or not" and "Billy`s Weekly Liar" LOL

I may have told this story here before (if so, my apologies!), but I think I may be able to 'trump' your and TTC's stories about 'walled in' transformers and fans ...

Once upon a time, several decades ago, there was a brand new 'state-of-the-art' hospital. A few months after the first phase opened, the nurse in charge of the operating theatre suite realised that there was something odd about the numbering of the operating theatres under her charge, since a number was 'missing' (i.e, they were numbered something like 1,2,3,5,,6,,7,8). When she enquired about this, there was a period of intense discussion amongst those who had designed, constructed and commissioned the building.

Eventually, a group of senior people, clutching plans/drawings and accompanied by some men with 'destructive tools', appeared in a corridor within the theatre suite. After a lot of measuring and re-measuring, with frequent reference to the drawings, the men got to work on the wall with their tools. Once they had made a hole through the wall, they were confronted with the 'missing' operating theatre - all fully tiled (walls and floor) and with all services (and, if I recall, even some 'equipment) installed!!

I never heard much more about what followed (other than that the newly-found theatre was put into service) But one has to 'wonder' about those who 'bricked up' and plastered what should have been the doorway into the room in question

 

[ebee]

Priceless LOL

 

[JohnW2]

Priceless LOL

Quite so!

An interesting thing is that I recall little, if anything, in the way of 'publicity' (hence 'public awareness') of the happenings I described, so it was primarily only those of us who were 'close to it' that were even aware that it had happened.

These days, I suspect that there would be a great fuss about 'the scandal', with all sorts of 'conspiracy theories ' as to why it happened, and all sorts of attempts to 'ascribe blame', with calls for any number of people (from Health Secretary downwards) to resign because of their association with the 'scandal' !

Times have changed

Kind Regards, John

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

but even then the two way/three way switching would muck that up anyway but she just could not understand it.

I make a point of connecting my 2-way switches, so that with all switches up, the light is off.

 

[JohnW2]

I make a point of connecting my 2-way switches, so that with all switches up, the light is off.

You do - but, as I said, that is far from always the situation, with the pair of switches often just connected 'at random' - so anyone who makes an assumption as to what arrangement of the two switches is definitely 'off' is taking a gamble (even a 'third party' in your house, because they would not know whether they could 'trust you' to have done as you say).

 

[hamd01]

Thank you for some of the awesome advice above! Great appreciated.

I have, I think just one last question.

If I want to avoid plugging things into sockets, which will be perminantly in situe, is it acceptable to detach the devices plug, and instead wire it to a 13amp fixed spur, but swapping out the fuse to the one from the plug.

Im thinking for example with electric blinds...I dont really want to cable running down the wall into a plug. But Id also potentially do the same with some of the led lighting.

Cheers

 

[JohnW2]

If I want to avoid plugging things into sockets, which will be perminantly in situe, is it acceptable to detach the devices plug, and instead wire it to a 13amp fixed spur, but swapping out the fuse to the one from the plug. .... Im thinking for example with electric blinds...I dont really want to cable running down the wall into a plug. But Id also potentially do the same with some of the led lighting.

Yes, you can do that and, as you imply the fuse you put into the 'fused connection unit' should be of the same rating as the one which was in the plug.

It the case of items which yopu buy with a 'fitted plug', some people will suggest that removing the plug (which often requires cutting the cable, if it is a 'moulded' plug) will "invalidate the warranty", but I think that is nonsense.

Kind Regards, John

 

[FrodoOne]

Im thinking for example with electric blinds...I dont really want to cable running down the wall into a plug. But Id also potentially do the same with some of the led lighting.

With the LED lighting you will still need to mount the "Power Supply" somewhere "accessible".
The Extra Low Voltage wiring could be run within walls
but
some form of connectors/wall plates would still be necessary.

Have you investigated the Magnetic Pogo Pin Connectors for LED Strip Lighting - suggested in Post #4 ?

 

[hamd01]

Yes, you can do that and, as you imply the fuse you put into the 'fused connection unit' should be of the same rating as the one which was in the plug.

It the case of items which yopu buy with a 'fitted plug', some people will suggest that removing the plug (which often requires cutting the cable, if it is a 'moulded' plug) will "invalidate the warranty", but I think that is nonsense.

Kind Regards, John

Awesome thank you..

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

If I want to avoid plugging things into sockets, which will be perminantly in situe, is it acceptable to detach the devices plug, and instead wire it to a 13amp fixed spur, but swapping out the fuse to the one from the plug.

You can do that, but why would you? Removing the plug, and connecting to a FCU, makes fault-finding and repair so much more difficult.