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[fixitflav]

Which makes L1 the de-facto "lorry lane", and L2 becomes "L1" for cars. Or, "middle lane hoggers", if you prefer.

But it's not unusual to see no HGVs or much traffic at all in the left lane, but still drivers hog the middle lane.

 

[morqthana]

I have been known to play an amusing game with such drivers

I take, and have always taken my driving on the public road, very, very seriously.

 

[morqthana]

Rubbish, there are no lorry lanes, or car lanes! There are times, when L1 really is full of trucks, stuck at 56mph, but there are always gaps, where it is worth moving to the left.

Are there though.

If you could tell us what cut-off time you would use for the "short time" below which it's not worth moving to the left, I can tell you how long a gap needs to be.

 

[morqthana]

Perhaps more to the point, I was talking about what one can do 'legally'. I would generally drive faster than that in lane(s) to my left (hence consistent with your view but if, as is commonly the case, traffic in those other lines is already drive at, or close to, 70 mph, that means that I would be travelling at an illegal speed.

If all vehicles (even those in the right-hand lane) stuck to the speed limit, and if they all only 'moved to the right' if they wanted to travel faster than traffic in their current lane, then I doubt that there would be much, if any, traffic in the right-hand two lanes of a 4-lane motorway

The corollary of that is that people who are "hogging" a lane, but are driving at the maximum speed allowed are inconveniencing nobody but drivers who want to break the law, and how much consideration do they deserve?

 

[morqthana]

That's deliberately vague as there is no specific time, it depends on the circumstances.

The problem with "deliberately vague" is that you're going to get two people, both in absolute agreement over the principle that drivers should move to the left when it makes sense to do so, arguing with each other about "lane hogging" because their vague, non-specific times are not the same.

Which is why I was interested to know your figure - not to pick an argument, but to examine the implications, and how differently somebody using a different figure would have to behave.

i.e. if you said "X seconds", I'd look at what that implied, and how someone using "Y seconds" would behave differently.

What "circumstances" can affect the time?

Interesting how much debate (and acrimony) this has caused.

Some people think they are better drivers than most others, and, indeed, better drivers than they are.

Of course there is a huge range of situatiions that can occur, in some of which middle lane hogging is more blatant than others, but nobody can seriously claim it doestn't happen.

Yes, it happens, but I think that anybody observing another driver and thinking "lane hogger" ought to consider if that person is simply using a different "deliberately vague" time, and to reflect on the extent to which they think all other drivers should be forced to fall in line with their thinking.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Are there though.

If you could tell us what cut-off time you would use for the "short time" below which it's not worth moving to the left, I can tell you how long a gap needs to be.

An adequate time, is that which leaves an adequate braking distance (plus a bit), for the vehicle you have pulled out to overtake. Obviously, if that position, would bring you to a position where you would then be about to pull out again, to pass another vehicle, then you remain in L2 etc.. There simply is no reason, or excuse, to sit in L2 with nothing on your left at all - ever, irrespective of whether you believe you are doing the speed limit or not.

Blowing one's horn, and/or flashing ones headlights, to give warning of one's approach, is absolutely valid use of those items. That is what they are for, to warn others who might be oblivious of your presence, that you are there. That is a valid use, according to the HC. Tooting at your friends, or letting her indoors know you are home, with the horn, is not a valid use.

There again, many people think they are doing the limit, as indicated by the speedo, on their dash. All speedos in cars are deliberately calibrated, to over read, as does the default one on my cars dash. I have two additional speedometers, both of which show my true, accurate, genuine speed, when driving near the limit, these are the ones I refer to. I have only once had a car, a company car, which had an accurate speedo, and I suspect that was an error on the production line - a car intended for the emergency services, but diverted on the line.

 

[morqthana]

An adequate time, is that which leaves an adequate braking distance (plus a bit), for the vehicle you have pulled out to overtake. Obviously, if that position, would bring you to a position where you would then be about to pull out again, to pass another vehicle, then you remain in L2 etc..

That's the issue I was trying to explore. "About to pull out again."

Fred might think that that meant less than 10 seconds, Bill might think it meant less than 30. Which would result in Fred calling Bill a "lane hogger".

There simply is no reason, or excuse, to sit in L2 with nothing on your left at all - ever, irrespective of whether you believe you are doing the speed limit or not.

Putting to one side both how one defines "nothing", and the likelihood of there actually being nothing, there could be a reason.

The road surface might be worse because of the pounding from HGVs.

Trees and a low sun might make the middle/RH lanes in shade. Or conversely the LH one shaded and icy or wet compared to ones to the right.

It might be a road where deer sometimes stray onto it.

The driver might know that there's a junction a mile or two ahead where he'll either have to move to the right, or might have to for the sake of joining traffic, and has decided for his own convenience to move out early, and if he is travelling as fast as allowed then why should he not? Who is going to be affected by it? Ditto if the left lane wasn't totally empty, but he'd rather be able to see the road a mile ahead than only to the back of the HGV a quarter of a mile ahead.

I'm sure we can all think of others if we put our minds to it. The point is that "There simply is no reason, or excuse, to sit in L2 with nothing on your left at all - ever, irrespective of whether you believe you are doing the speed limit or not" is untrue.

Blowing one's horn, and/or flashing ones headlights, to give warning of one's approach, is absolutely valid use of those items. That is what they are for, to warn others who might be oblivious of your presence, that you are there. That is a valid use, according to the HC. Tooting at your friends, or letting her indoors know you are home, with the horn, is not a valid use.

Well, as long as the "warning" is not needed because you're doing, or are about to do, an illegal manœuvre, or a "warning" to get out of your way....

There again, many people think they are doing the limit, as indicated by the speedo, on their dash. All speedos in cars are deliberately calibrated, to over read, as does the default one on my cars dash. I have two additional speedometers, both of which show my true, accurate, genuine speed, when driving near the limit, these are the ones I refer to. I have only once had a car, a company car, which had an accurate speedo, and I suspect that was an error on the production line - a car intended for the emergency services, but diverted on the line.

Not a problem. Any driver who took his responsibilities very, very, seriously would know to allow for the fact that a driver in front of him, not blessed with multiple speedometers of great accuracy, might genuinely think they were driving at 40mph when in reality they weren't even doing 31mph, and would proceed appropriately, in accordance with the law, and with due courtesy to the other driver.

Wouldn't they.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

That's the issue I was trying to explore. "About to pull out again."

Fred might think that that meant less than 10 seconds, Bill might think it meant less than 30. Which would result in Fred calling Bill a "lane hogger".

It is not a fixed amount of time, it varies, based upon driving conditions. Providing I was keep pace with L2, and L2 was fairly chocker, I would not expect anyone to move to L1, then struggle to get back out to L2 to overtake.

The road surface might be worse because of the pounding from HGVs.

Trees and a low sun might make the middle/RH lanes in shade. Or conversely the LH one shaded and icy or wet compared to ones to the right.

It might be a road where deer sometimes stray onto it.

Here's another barrel to scrape for excuse.

The driver might know that there's a junction a mile or two ahead where he'll either have to move to the right, or might have to for the sake of joining traffic, and has decided for his own convenience to move out early, and if he is travelling as fast as allowed then why should he not? Who is going to be affected by it? Ditto if the left lane wasn't totally empty, but he'd rather be able to see the road a mile ahead than only to the back of the HGV a quarter of a mile ahead.

If the junction is a mile or two ahead, then why are you obstructing L2? Are you completely incapable of putting your right indicator on, and waiting for a space, to then move to L2 nearer the junction? I never have problem, why do you? There are always signs ahead of a junction, warning of the junction, even minor ones, the only exceptions are farm tracks and private drives.

The who is going to be affected - is everyone behind you, forced to travel at likely less than the posted limit, because you are simply not aware that your speedo over reads the true speed.

 

[morqthana]

It is not a fixed amount of time, it varies, based upon driving conditions. Providing I was keep pace with L2, and L2 was fairly chocker, I would not expect anyone to move to L1, then struggle to get back out to L2 to overtake.

I'm starting to wonder if you secretly know what the implications of any given time are, but don't want to have to acknowledge them.

So I'll quote an example.

L1 is HGVs doing 56mph
In L2 is a car doing 70mph
Visibility is good
Weather/road is dry
Time "threshold" is 30s

The gap the car needs to pull into is therefore 300m long.

Good luck finding HGV drivers leaving gaps like that between their vehicles, but without such a gap the car cannot move to the left and remain there for at least 30s.

And if you want a scenario where the car might actually hold others up, if it's doing 65mph the necessary gap between the trucks is 229m. Again, good luck with that.

But of course anybody wishing to drive at 70mph in L2, and objects to the person in front not moving over because there isn't a 229m gap is in effect saying "you must be inconvenienced so that I am not, because I am more important than you and my desires trump yours". How does that work?

Here's another barrel to scrape for excuse.

No - just valid things I thought of which show that your "there is no excuse EVER" can't be true.

If the junction is a mile or two ahead, then why are you obstructing L2?

He's not:

he is travelling as fast as allowed

The who is going to be affected - is everyone behind you, forced to travel at likely less than the posted limit, because you are simply not aware that your speedo over reads the true speed.

But those drivers have the same sort of speedos as the person in front of them, so would have the same lack of awareness.

And anybody who took their driving responsibilities so very, very, seriously that they took the trouble to have two extra speedometers installed in their car, (and, one hopes, had their calibration frequently checked) so that they could be absolutely sure that they didn't inadvertently drive too slowly and hold others up, would by their very nature also be the sort of driver who would understand the limitations of other road users with only the manufacturer speedometer to go by, and would treat them courteously.

Wouldn't they?

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Good luck finding HGV drivers leaving gaps like that between their vehicles, but without such a gap the car cannot move to the left and remain there for at least 30s.

And if you want a scenario where the car might actually hold others up, if it's doing 65mph the necessary gap between the trucks is 229m. Again, good luck with that.

If I can do it driving an 38' articulated vehicle, and still find the gaps which you suggest are simply not there, without causing myself or anyone else any stress, then I'm sure you can find a way..

and with that, I will put you back in the cage, where you rightfully belong, to argue with yourself. Bye-bye!

 

[fixitflav]

The problem with "deliberately vague" is that you're going to get two people, both in absolute agreement over the principle that drivers should move to the left when it makes sense to do so, arguing with each other about "lane hogging" because their vague, non-specific times are not the same.

I don't think there's any problem with driver A being a bit slower than driver B to return to the left lane, it's the ones who don't do it at all who are the trouble

What "circumstances" can affect the time?

It would depend on the speed you're going at, and the speed of other traffic

Some people think they are better drivers than most others, and, indeed, better drivers than they are.

Definitely, surveys show 80% of drivers think they're better than average! I daresay most of us on here do

Yes, it happens, but I think that anybody observing another driver and thinking "lane hogger" ought to consider if that person is simply using a different "deliberately vague" time, and to reflect on the extent to which they think all other drivers should be forced to fall in line with their thinking.

See above

 

[morqthana]

If I can do it driving an 38' articulated vehicle, and still find the gaps which you suggest are simply not there, without causing myself or anyone else any stress, then I'm sure you can find a way..

Sorry, Harry, but you simply cannot argue with the maths involved.

Given what I outlined:

L1 is HGVs doing 56mph
In L2 is a car doing 70mph
Visibility is good
Weather/road is dry
Time "threshold" is 30s

The gap needed to pull into is 300m long. It really, really is, and there is not a single thing you can do about that. We could make it wet, if you like, and watch the gap go up to 413m.

You're free to say you don't agree that the time threshold should be as long as 30s, but you won't suggest another figure and I had to pick something. I can only be that which would make a difference, because you take your driving on the public road, very, very seriously, so you must therefore know all about gaps.

 

[morqthana]

I don't think there's any problem with driver A being a bit slower than driver B to return to the left lane, it's the ones who don't do it at all who are the trouble

But then we keep coming back to the same problem. Without an agreement on how long a driver needs to be able to spend back in the left lane before having to move out again, "not doing it at all" could simply be "there's never a long enough gap", not a case of "I'm never going to bother to move back into the left lane".

I'll run another example.

L1 is HGVs doing 56mph
In L2 is a car doing 65mph
Weather/road is wet
Time "threshold" is 30s

The gap needed is getting up towards 400 yards. Basically, if you were stood at the side of the road, then if the HGVs were coming past you more frequently than 1 every 13.5s then there would never be a gap suitable for the car to move into, so from the POV of the 70mph driver behind him is he one of "the ones who don't do it at all", or is it just an unfortunate fact that given the road and traffic conditions he just can't move over?

It would depend on the speed you're going at, and the speed of other traffic

Trying to picture that. Those factors affect how much space you need to move into, but outside of quite slow traffic, where the I've-gotta-use-something figure of 30s might mean moving in and out over quite short distances (which would also probably mean vehicles so close together that there's no freedom to move in and out anyway), how does it affect the time?

Definitely, surveys show 80% of drivers think they're better than average! I daresay most of us on here do

Probably.

Want a scary thought?

Consider the average driver. Half the people you're sharing the roads with are worse than that.

See above

Ditto.

 

[fixitflav]

If the junction is a mile or two ahead, then why are you obstructing L2? Are you completely incapable of putting your right indicator on, and waiting for a space, to then move to L2 nearer the junction? I never have problem, why do you? There are always signs ahead of a junction, warning of the junction, even minor ones, the only exceptions are farm tracks and private drives.

A bit off the subject, but there's a stretch of the A50 in Derbyshire I use, 3-lane dual, where going west the left lane peels off to the A6. The overhead sign says in 1/2 mile, but I see some HGVs panic and swing straight into the middle lane, no mirror (I assume), no signal. It's mainly HGVs as most of the cars are hogging the middle lane already!

 

[fixitflav]

Consider the average driver. Half the people you're sharing the roads with are worse than that.

There was a headline in the Sun a few years ago - "Half the schools in Britain are below average"