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That reminded me of another "barrel to scrape for excuse" for Harry (if he didn't have his fingers in his ears).
Driver B moves to the left in front of Driver A, but too soon - doesn't leave a big enough gap (HGV drivers are some of the worst offenders for that).
Driver A has to choose between
a) Driving too close to the vehicle in front until the gap has opened up enough
b) Slowing down
c) Moving to the right
Basically, what right does B have to make A drive unsafely? What right does he have to force him to slow down?
But to other drivers it could appear as if A has just moved out and isn't overtaking anybody.
I don't see what that has to do with my post, but trying to analyse things in terms of times and distances doesn't get us anywhere. It's like a driving test asking for stopping distance in metres, from various speeds. I doubt if any of us could give a figure, but we all know how much distance to allow in real life on the road, or should do. And if somebody gets it wrong, knowing the Highway Code figure wouldn't have helped.
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The point is, to get the idea into new driver's heads, that vehicles do not and cannot instantly stop dead. As you become more experienced, the sensible amongst us appreciate that leaving a proper gap, both saves fuel, is much safer, and costs you no extra time. The closer you drive to the vehicle ahead, the more stressful, the less you can see, with less warning, and you have much less time you have to react.
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I don't disagree with that, but just out of interest, can you quote stopping distance from say 60 mph, on dry and wet roads? No looking it up
!Though I'm sure you know how much to allow in practice.Do you agree with me about trying to analyse things in terms of times and distances?
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I don't disagree with that, but just out of interest, can you quote stopping distance from say 60 mph, on dry and wet roads? No looking it up
No, not a clue after all these years, but out on the road I can easily judge it.
I'm not sure what you mean by that? All that matters, out on the road, is can you judge things safely, and knowing your vehicle's limits, plus your own limits.
Precisely, I'm the same.
I was referring to morqthana wanting figures for times and distances, and (in my view) over-analysing it.
Correct! Only a fool would get a tape measure out, when the need is to assess a safe distance or do an emergency stop.
Indeed so. That is entirely consistent with what I wrote, namely that a high proportion of serious accidents result from changes of lane - and that includes unintentional changes of lane as well as deliberate/intentional ones.
... and something that wouldn't/shouldn't happen with the way I drive. I would only move into, or stay in, a lane (e.g. L2) if I wanted to travel (to overtake, or simply to 'cruise) at a speed significantly higher than the lane to its left. It would be somewhat odd for someone travelling in L1 wanted not only to travel faster than the traffic in that lane but also faster than that in L2, wouldn't it?
Looking back at what I've written in this thread, how people have reacted to it and what else they have written, I wonder if I have not been clear enough about how I drive ...
... in some senses, I could be described as a 'middle lane hog', since I often spend quite long periods of time in that lane. However, when I do so, it's because I 'want' (have chosen to) drive at a speed appreciably higher than that in lane*s) to my left (which will often mean that I 'want' to travel at an illegal speed). If the traffic in L1 is travelling at a speed I am happy to travel at, I will stay in that lane. If L1 is empty 'for as far as I can see', then I will move into that lane. However, what I generally will not do is move into L1 if I can 'see' (at any distance, so perhaps giving my personal answer to the 'how short?' question) a vehicle which I will probably want to overtake when I get to it (i.e. seeming travelling slower than I want to travel)
Quite, and hence the problem I've alluded to. If the traffic in L1 (or L2 in a 3- or 4-lane road) is travelling at, or close to 70 mph, then that means that, legally-speaking (and, I think, per the Highway Code), no vehicle is allowed to use any lane(s) to the right of it - which would result in a dramatic (ridiculous and unnecessary) reduction in the capacity of the road.
Maybe, but, as well as there being a 'maximum speed allowed", the Highway Code also seems to being saying that lanes to the right of L1 should only be used temporarily for overtaking, thereby seemingly encouraging the 'jumping between lanes every few seconds' behaviour of some drivers which drives me mad (particularly if, as if often the case, they do not signal these countless lane changes
) ....
One great habit I learned riding motorbikes, was the over-the-shoulder glance, before making a move, in addition to the use of mirrors. I don't see many car drivers doing it at all, most seem oblivious of vehicles alongside. Another habit I learned driving modern vehicles, with thick A pillars, and mine is especially thick, is to move the head to look around the pillar - a lot can be hidden behind that pillar.
It absolutely does.
It absolutely has to.
Unless you are one of those drivers who thinks you are so good, and so special, that the accepted safety advice does not apply to you, then times and distances are crucial to everybody's well being, even yours.
And that time is 2 seconds, which via GCSE-or-earlier level maths equates to a given distance for any given speed.
So if you are going to pull in front of someone you have overtaken, or are expecting someone else to pull over after they have overtaken, you MUST NOT, or they MUST NOT, pull over until they are at least 2 seconds in front of the vehicle they've just overtaken.
No ifs.
No buts.
No maybes.
Only MUST NOTs.
And that becomes 4+ seconds in the wet, and 20+ seconds if it's icy.
Even if you think that you are so special that the advice doesn't apply to you, you sure as hell can't forcibly prevent its application to the person now behind you.
Then you have to look at the gap in front of you, which at the instant you pull into the left lane has to be 2+ seconds, and which has to be longer and longer the more time you want to spend in that lane before moving out again once the gap to the vehicle you are closing on drops to 2+ seconds.
Adding up the 2s gap behind, the 2s gap in front, and the distance you close in Xs is pretty simple maths.
Hence the importance of the question about how long is it reasonable to expect someone to be able to remain in that lane before moving back out, or how long do you think you'd want to be able to stay there. If the basic position is "you, Mr Man In Front, should move back to the left because you'll be able to stay there for X seconds, therefore not moving back to the left would be an affront to other drivers" then what is X?
Nobody has been willing or able to answer that question, but given the example scenarios I've used above, whether the gap needs to be 300m, or 229m, or 413m, or whatever, you CANNOT argue against that figure.
There are only two ways you can dispute it:
i) You reject the safety advice concerning a 2+ second gap
ii) You use a different figure for how long it is reasonable to expect someone to be able to remain in the slower moving traffic before having to move out again
The distance in real life is whatever it takes you 2 seconds to cover at the speed you are doing, if the road is dry. It is 4 seconds in the wet. It is 20 seconds if it is icy.
Being able to estimate that distance is a skill you have to acquire. In front of you is easy enough, you can count the time between the car in front and you passing a road marking, or a bridge, etc. Behind you is harder, you shouldn't drive along looking in the mirror until you can count a 2 second gap, but you can glance, and you can learn to recognise the 'picture' you should see when you've built up a 2s gap.
Should you be able to do that? Yes.
Is it easy? Not especially.
Did anybody ever tell you that learning to drive properly was a p-o-p? They lied.
Sorry, I can't be bothered to read all that, or to discuss this any more, you've bludgeoned me into submission. All I wanted to say is that middle lane hogging happens, regularly. Chalk it up as a win if you like, but I'm out of here.
Indeed. However (and I doubt that I am alone), one thing I have come to realise is that, although I'm generally totally unaware of it, the extent to which I can turn my head/neck 'to look over my shoulder' has progressively (but without being generally noticed) decreased with the progression of "old age". I'm most aware of that when driving and having to deal with an 'oblique' junction, when I struggle to turn my head enough to see what is about to hit me (and mirrors don't really help in that situation!) !
However, I I always say, I don't complain about 'getting old' (or the consequences thereof), since the alternative is even less attractive
I should have added to my explanation ...
... on a 3-or 4-lane road, I will generally only use the right-most lane (L3 or L4), very briefly, for overtaking. Even with a 2-lane road, if I'm in L2 and something behind me looks as if it may want to 'pass' me, I'll move into L1, at least temporarily, (to 'let them pass) if that is feasible/practical, even if I then immediately move back into L2.
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