Huge gas pressure drop between meter and boiler. Help!

[DP]

I read that installers have a habit of vastly over sizing boilers.

I doubt it. Installer has very little to gain from oversizing the boiler. The difference in price between say a 24 or 28 kw is about £50.00. You are perhaps confusing a system boiler output against a combi boiler output which is like comparing oranges with apples.
What is quite common is that an installer may ‘assume’ gas line adequate when it is not and the finish the job, if he indeed is half way bothered, to fudge the figures in the benchmark which more often than not is a blank sheet

 

[DP]

Deary me .... are we seriously up to 11 pages with this FFS

Is there really any need for it? I'm sure the OP is seriously lost now ... or maybe not

This is a big issue now that the DIYers are mudding the waters with their professionalism resulting in the posters seeking solid advice do not know what to do. They come here for some clear answers but what they end up with is lost will to live.

A few weeks ago there was a guy who came asking for help to get his Vaillant VCW 242 sorted. He was so lost that he was considering replacing it.

 

[Madrab]

They come here for some clear answers but what they end up with is lost will to live

It can certainly be an issue and more so recently. The major problem I see with it is that it then pushes a lot of the professionals, who give their time freely to help, to stop offering advice. That then devalues the whole site and at the end of the day it is the DIY'er, that really needs the help, that loses out.

Whilst it is a public forum and there is no issue with constructive criticism between professionals and avid DIY'ers alike, there needs to be a point where it stops. When it descends into reams and reams of pointless arguments where posters are obviously trying to score points by arguing points that don't really have anything to do with the question in hand, or it goes way above the OP's head head, then people just switch off or don't come back and that doesn't help anyone.

I guess that's where the MODS should maybe step in and call a halt to the back and forth proceedings, they are the only ones that have the permissions to do anything about it but I suppose they can't watch everything.

 

[Deleted member 267285]

I guess that's where the MODS should maybe step in and call a halt to the back and forth proceedings, they are the only ones that have the permissions to do anything about it but I suppose they can't watch everything.

I mentioned mods on a recent thread, and they said “they don’t read every thread”, for them to act, someone has to report it.

 

[Madrab]

I mentioned mods on a recent thread, and they said “they don’t read every thread”, for them to act, someone has to report it.

Yep .... can understand that completely but you would think that when a thread gets to 11/12 pages long that it would at least peak someones interest

 

[Deleted member 267285]

Yep .... can understand that completely but you would think that when a thread gets to 11/12 pages long that it would at least peak someones interest

Yep, you would but I think that’s what happened with the other thread this one https://www.diynot.com/diy/threads/boiler-using-excessive-gas-after-service.584701/

 

[allfives]

I have followed many boiler installations, and found undersized pipe work! 1/ the original installer probably just wrote in the commission page 20 or 21 mb at the boiler without actually checking? 2/ Vaillant comí boilers normally run OK at 17mb not 13mb 3/ in any case gas regulation state to be less than 1mb drop in pipework to operating appliance Vaillant gave their rules (Boiler manufacturers do not know where their products will be installed) Gas regs have others! and ACS courses are SUPPOSED to ensure fitters are competent. 3/ It would need a test nipple installed on the pipework just before it enters the boiler to find the drop of 1mb as the gas valve in the boiler will have additional restriction to boiler etc. 4/ depending on boiler kW rate and other appliances fitted, I would expect (a) the pipework is undersized (B) The commission page is wrongly completed by lack of care or incompetence! (C) there could be debris /sludge in the pipework (this would require both ends of the gas supply disconnecting and well ventilated then use compressed air from the appliance end blowing through to remove it then reconnection and purging. It is my guess that the fault exists from the very begining of the installation and pipework upgrading was not considered in the installation costs.

 

[BlueLoo]

Great post.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

The steel pipe in the photo provided by the op looks as if it is in good condition, which I would not expect if the pipe were of similar age to the house. Assuming the pipe under floor is also steel and quite ancient, might it have rusted internally and the problem be rust build up obstructing the pipe?

Our suppliers pipe, until a couple of years ago was steel run through the rear gardens when built in the mid 1950's - now replaced by modern plastic run down the road at the front. The big concern was the pipes rusting away and leaking - for years prior to their replacement, they came round more and more often with their gas sniffer, along the back garden route of the pipe.

 

[davecon70]

I have followed many boiler installations, and found undersized pipe work! 1/ the original installer probably just wrote in the commission page 20 or 21 mb at the boiler without actually checking? 2/ Vaillant comí boilers normally run OK at 17mb not 13mb 3/ in any case gas regulation state to be less than 1mb drop in pipework to operating appliance Vaillant gave their rules (Boiler manufacturers do not know where their products will be installed) Gas regs have others! and ACS courses are SUPPOSED to ensure fitters are competent. 3/ It would need a test nipple installed on the pipework just before it enters the boiler to find the drop of 1mb as the gas valve in the boiler will have additional restriction to boiler etc. 4/ depending on boiler kW rate and other appliances fitted, I would expect (a) the pipework is undersized (B) The commission page is wrongly completed by lack of care or incompetence! (C) there could be debris /sludge in the pipework (this would require both ends of the gas supply disconnecting and well ventilated then use compressed air from the appliance end blowing through to remove it then reconnection and purging. It is my guess that the fault exists from the very begining of the installation and pipework upgrading was not considered in the installation costs.

i think this sums up the entire thread. For all those following the GSE didn’t come or call today which I expected. I called Gas safe and am going to request that they come to check if the installation was done correctly. Hopefully they can advise on the solution but the more I read the more it sounds as if the pipe work to the boiler is not sufficient. That should have been checked at the time or at least I should have been made aware of options.

all in in I’m pretty peed off. More money to pay out and it sounds as if only part of the job was done correctly.

thank you all for your input and I will keep you posted.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

all in in I’m pretty peed off. More money to pay out and it sounds as if only part of the job was done correctly.

thank you all for your input and I will keep you posted.

As I think was pointed out to you, the original engineer will be faced with the cost of bring it up to standard, there will be no cost to you.

 

[davecon70]

As I think was pointed out to you, the original engineer will be faced with the cost of bring it up to standard, there will be no cost to you.

Ah good point!

 

[BlueLoo]

As I think was pointed out to you, the original engineer will be faced with the cost of bring it up to standard, there will be no cost to you.

Sure about that?
Replacing the original piping was never in the original quote i imagine.

I could see a situation of the costs of retro fit being pushed back to the installer but the new piping is new work.

I would think the cost for the new piping will be as is but final connection and commissioning will be gratis.

Quite happy to be told that's not going to be the case but still..

 

[FiremanT]

Sure about that?
Replacing the original piping was never in the original quote i imagine.

I could see a situation of the costs of retro fit being pushed back to the installer but the new piping is new work.

I would think the cost for the new piping will be as is but final connection and commissioning will be gratis.

Quite happy to be told that's not going to be the case but still..

Wrong. The installer is REQUIRED to fit a compliant installation. If Gas Safe visit, and decide (and arguably have to prove) that he did not fit it to compliant pipework, they will issue a notice for him to rectify.
You cannot even do this if the customer “takes responsibility “ at the quote and install stage

 

[FiremanT]

I have just looked at the EcoTech MI’s and it states the IP must be 20mm (as expected), in the service section it says it can work safely at 17mb - not 13.5 as discussed here.

Am I looking at an old manual?