Huge gas pressure drop between meter and boiler. Help!

[ScottishGasMan]

I have just looked at the EcoTech MI’s and it states the IP must be 20mm (as expected), in the service section it says it can work safely at 17mb - not 13.5 as discussed here.

Am I looking at an old manual?

Yes you are

 

[Deleted member 267285]

Both from plus and pro models, tried to show them as different screenshots, but essentially the same:

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Wrong. The installer is REQUIRED to fit a compliant installation. If Gas Safe visit, and decide (and arguably have to prove) that he did not fit it to compliant pipework, they will issue a notice for him to rectify.

The engineer installed and commissioned it, it was his responsibility to ensure it was entirely compliant with the regs and manufacturers intsructions.

You cannot even do this if the customer “takes responsibility “ at the quote and install stage

Not clear what you mean by that - the customer cannot agree to take responsibility for an installation which doesn't meet regs. If the engineer attempts to commission it and finds it doesn't meet spec., then he should approach the customer, explain why and what extra work needs to be done to make it compliant. There is no option to say the customer accepted it.

 

[Deleted member 267285]

The engineer installed and commissioned it, it was his responsibility to ensure it was entirely compliant with the regs and manufacturers intsructions.

Obviously only the engineer can dispute this, but it could have been ok at the time of installation.

Not clear what you mean by that - the customer cannot agree to take responsibility for an installation which doesn't meet regs. If the engineer attempts to commission it and finds it doesn't meet spec., then he should approach the customer, explain why and what extra work needs to be done to make it compliant. There is no option to say the customer accepted it.

What he means is, hence the quote marks: if the installer states the installation is wrong and recommends an upgrade, and customer states they will sign a waiver, or they will accept responsibility if it’s ever pulled, or there’s an issue later on - as we have now.

 

[DP]

Not clear what you mean by that - the customer cannot agree to take responsibility for an installation which doesn't meet regs. If the engineer attempts to commission it and finds it doesn't meet spec., then he should approach the customer, explain why and what extra work needs to be done to make it compliant. There is no option to say the customer accepted it.

If a customer says he will not pay to upgrade the gas line when boiler is to be fitted, why should installer take responsibility. Even if customer said he will accept substandard gas line, I would not want to be involved as I would be walking away

Not always is the commissioning and installation carried out by the same person. Commissioning engineer would complete the benchmark logbook and enter true reading ( not made up) which may then highlight discrepancy which the householder would flag with the installer ( as installer and commissioning bods may not even know each other )

13 pages of to and fro that almost certainly the OP will wonder what or why did he embark on this; even wonder if he will be reading every strike and if it makes any sense to him.

 

[BlueLoo]

Wrong. The installer is REQUIRED to fit a compliant installation. If Gas Safe visit, and decide (and arguably have to prove) that he did not fit it to compliant pipework, they will issue a notice for him to rectify.
You cannot even do this if the customer “takes responsibility “ at the quote and install stage

I still don't quite see how this means the fitter is on the hook for the cost of the non compliant piping all the way back to the meter, unless the agreement was to specifically "Fit a boiler and associated necessary pipe works"

That is likely to be a considerable expense, no?

 

[FiremanT]

If a customer says he will not pay to upgrade the gas line when boiler is to be fitted, why should installer take responsibility. Even if customer said he will accept substandard gas line, I would not want to be involved as I would be walking away

Not always is the commissioning and installation carried out by the same person. Commissioning engineer would complete the benchmark logbook and enter true reading ( not made up) which may then highlight discrepancy which the householder would flag with the installer ( as installer and commissioning bods may not even know each other )

13 pages of to and fro that almost certainly the OP will wonder what or why did he embark on this; even wonder if he will be reading every strike and if it makes any sense to him.

Because, DP, you cannot fit substandard. Every RGI knows that , or should.
When fitting a combi, tge mere presence of Iron should tell you that a re-run is possibly required.
At the quite stage, if the run is not visible, the obvious thing to do is state that a re run may be required and it would cost £xxx. If you leave it undersized, trouble may be down the road, as in this case.

Also, you are not allowed to plan to commission another RGI’s work. I am sure it happens on site work, and believe it is common on commercial?, but the commissioning engineer takes exactly the responsibility as if he installed it. Again, everyone that matters knows this.

 

[FiremanT]

The engineer installed and commissioned it, it was his responsibility to ensure it was entirely compliant with the regs and manufacturers intsructions.

I don’t understand why it is not clear to you? Your statement is exactly what I said.


Not clear what you mean by that - the customer cannot agree to take responsibility for an installation which doesn't meet regs. If the engineer attempts to commission it and finds it doesn't meet spec., then he should approach the customer, explain why and what extra work needs to be done to make it compliant. There is no option to say the customer accepted it.

 

[BlueLoo]

13 pages of to and fro that almost certainly the OP will wonder what or why did he embark on this; even wonder if he will be reading every strike and if it makes any sense to him.

I have to say, i think you and your mob are getting out of order with this constant snipping and thread crapping.
Not everyone has an attention span of 1 page.

The OP reading this thread is learning as it progresses. I certainly am and i am finding it very valuable which is the point of the forum.

He now knows that he also has other issues with the the install which he can choose to follow up on or not.
We are currently teasing out what is likely to happen in the inevitable dispute when the OP comes to remedy the supply piping.
Anyone reading this, either now, or in the future now has a reference to the process. IF the OP gives an update on the outcome even better.

I think you are doing yourselves a disservice with all this thread negativity.
Be positive, the best teachers teach because they want others to learn,

 

[FiremanT]

I still don't quite see how this means the fitter is on the hook for the cost of the non compliant piping all the way back to the meter, unless the agreement was to specifically "Fit a boiler and associated necessary pipe works"

That is likely to be a considerable expense, no?

Yes, it is an expense that should have been factored at the start. It is part of the job!
He cocked up and is trying to lay his shortcoming on to the OP. He may be better explaining everything honestly and hope the OP may be willing to, say, pay for the materials .

The trouble is,BLoo, that you do not understand the requirements and responsibilities of an RGI, and there is no readon as in why you should.

 

[BlueLoo]

Yes, it is an expense that should have been factored at the start. It is part of the job!
He cocked up and is trying to lay his shortcoming on to the OP. He may be better explaining everything honestly and hope the OP may be willing to, say, pay for the materials .

The trouble is,BLoo, that you do not understand the requirements and responsibilities of an RGI, and there is no readon as in why you should.

Completely agree.
Its very interesting to read this as i will be looking for a new boiler soon. All these issues are being noted for myself.
Over here, you wouldn't have a leg to stand on unless you went through a long and expensive claims.

 

[DP]

Because, DP, you cannot fit substandard

I know that, would never go down that road, would walk away from such a request

 

[DP]

Also, you are not allowed to plan to commission another RGI’s work. I am sure it happens on site work, and believe it is common on commercial?, but the commissioning engineer takes exactly the responsibility as if he installed it. Again, everyone that matters knows this.

Again was assuming site work or similar. Any boiler changes I do, I commission the appliance too

 

[allfives]

Again Fireman T is correct here The installer has to leave his installation compliant to gas safety use and regulations don't confuse this with just Gas Safe which in my opinion are crap money taking body!
Ifhe/she cannot leave the appliance to gas regs And MI he must do the necessary paperwork to relieve himself of the situation or turn off the appliance, he should not leave it operating unless it is safe to do so.This brings me back to saying ACS courses are OKish but too many pass this simple course and go in the loose calling themselves engineers when they they can't even see faults on landlord reports or commission or service an appliance correctly.
Vaillant MI for ecotec says to clean heat exchanger with white vinegar ( I think page 54) not sure but not many so called engineers (haha) carry it or use it, they just put the FGA in the flue and call that a service. Read your print out from the FGA boiler temperature should be 40°c to 80°c Less than 40°c the boiler is not at operating temperature and co/co2 can be wrong not even correcting the co/co2 to Mi which should be corrected by cleaning not adjustment to the gas valve, G10 seal should be replaced every service and flue cleaned intake and exhaust Again Ive inspected many like this, Ive even had a so called engineer call me to say his reading on A Worcester junior was very high, How do I bring it down??? the obvious answer is service it but he didn't have a clue how to dismantle and remove the baffles, I found he had not cleaned the flue, or condense trap, the baffles were stuck through lack of service, after correcting this the co/cow was only a slight adjustment away. BUT GAS SAFE BODY SLEEP ON THEIR JOB TAKING MONEY FOR NOTHING A competent person should not have to be gas safe registered as long as his work is foolproof and he/she is fully resposible and liable in a court of law if if a true engineer cannot fault the work then the person is competent but today's system of ACS and gas safe is crap producing and calling incompetent people engineers

 

[davecon70]

If a customer says he will not pay to upgrade the gas line when boiler is to be fitted, why should installer take responsibility. Even if customer said he will accept substandard gas line, I would not want to be involved as I would be walking away

Not always is the commissioning and installation carried out by the same person. Commissioning engineer would complete the benchmark logbook and enter true reading ( not made up) which may then highlight discrepancy which the householder would flag with the installer ( as installer and commissioning bods may not even know each other )

13 pages of to and fro that almost certainly the OP will wonder what or why did he embark on this; even wonder if he will be reading every strike and if it makes any sense to him.

I must say I’m amazed at 13 pages but have taken it all with a pinch of salt. Gas safe will come to take a look at the installation but it sounds as if the pipes should have been upgraded at the time but I was not made aware of this, nor was it quoted. The replacement of the boiler was just over £5k high struck me as a lot but seemingly I had to get a new boiler as the other was deemed unsafe. My assumption was that if a new boiler was installed it would have to meet the specifications. Whilst I am not sure about gas safe implications it definitely wasn’t installed with the correct clearance. Apparently that would have cost more but I wasn’t given a choice.