Is downlight replacement notifiable work?

[hillsrob]

I'm anticipating an EICR category C2 because the downlights in my house are not fire rated. I rewired the house myself under building control and the installation was passed as 'satisfactory' by the council appointed electrician who noted the shortcoming as a C3.

5 years later I am about to sell the property and the buyer's solicitor has asked for the electrics to be re-inspected. I've had an EICR done and although I don't yet have the report I know that it has been given a fail 'unsatisfactory'. This means one or more C1s or C2s.

If the non fire rated downlights are now deemed C2, can I save some of the cost or the remedial works by replacing them myself? There are about 40 downlights to replace!

 

[flameport]

Fire rated downlights are rarely required in a domestic property.

Even if they are, it's up to the buyer to repair/replace/whatever.
It's also up to the buyer to arrange and pay for any EICR, survey or whatever else they want.

 

[endecotp]

House or flat?

 

[hillsrob]

Fire rated downlights are rarely required in a domestic property.

Even if they are, it's up to the buyer to repair/replace/whatever.
It's also up to the buyer to arrange and pay for any EICR, survey or whatever else they want.

I tend to agree. I provided the last report that was dated August 2015. It recommended re-inspection in 2020. Obviously I want the sale to go through. As it's now a fail I feel obliged to either forward the report or have the remedial work done. They are otherwise happy with their Homebuyers Survey.

 

[hillsrob]

House or flat?

It's a 3 bedroom terraced house. NAPIT classify non-fire rated downlights below a bedroom as C2. I should get the report back today.

 

[hillsrob]

Just as I thought the C2 is for non-fire rated downlights on the ground floor. I have emailed back to say they were signed off by South Gloucestershire Building Control in 2016 and asked if the regulations have changed since then. There are also one or two C3s but I won't know the details till they quote me for the remedial work.

 

[JohnW2]

5 years later I am about to sell the property and the buyer's solicitor has asked for the electrics to be re-inspected.

Unless you're desperate to sell, my personal inclination would be to tell the buyer's solicitor that if the buyer wants an EICR done, at their expense, that's up to them - and also that the house is being sold 'as is', and that the asking price reflects that, so if any 'remedial work' is required, that would be something for a buyer to arrange, and pay for.

Others may disagree!

Kind Regards, John

 

[DetlefSchmitz]

Others may disagree!

Not really...

 

[hillsrob]

Unless you're desperate to sell, my personal inclination would be to tell the buyer's solicitor that if the buyer wants an EICR done, at their expense, that's up to them - and also that the house is being sold 'as is', and that the asking price reflects that, so if any 'remedial work' is required, that would be something for a buyer to arrange, and pay for.

Others may disagree!

Kind Regards, John

While the market is currently quite buoyant it may not stay that way for long. Sale progress is however very slow. I received the current offer over 8 weeks ago and we are just about to exchange contracts. I just need this EICR to get it over the line. If I fit the downlights myself and get the electrician to do the few other C3s they probably won't charge me for a complete retest. Changing 23 downlights is going to be quite labour intensive. I've found suitable Aurora ones for £6.84 each including VAT. https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/tcl/orders/10888955

 

[JohnW2]

I'm anticipating an EICR category C2 because the downlights in my house are not fire rated.

While the market is currently quite buoyant it may not stay that way for long. Sale progress is however very slow. I received the current offer over 8 weeks ago and we are just about to exchange contracts. I just need this EICR to get it over the line. If I fit the downlights myself and get the electrician to do the few other C3s they probably won't charge me for a complete retest. Changing 23 downlights is going to be quite labour intensive.

Understood, but you seem to be overlooking what flameport said early on - namely that fire-rated downlights are rarely needed in houses (mainly only in flats, where there is a dwelling under different ownership/occupancy above the ceiling) - so they may well not even deserve C3s, let alone C2s. However ...

.... I've had an EICR done and although I don't yet have the report I know that it has been given a fail 'unsatisfactory'. This means one or more C1s or C2s.

As you say, 'unsatisfactory' means that there must be at least one C2 (or even C1) - but if, as above, it's not the downlights, you're going to have to wait until you see the report to find out what the problem(s) is/are said to be - which could be something quite major, but may well be something(s) relatively trivial. To replace all the downlights before you even knew whether they were mentioned on the EICR would seemingly a bit bit on the crazy side, so I presume you were not contemplating doing that!

In other words, you can't cross the bridge until you come to it, and know what it looks like!

Kind Regards, John

 

[hillsrob]

Understood, but you seem to be overlooking what flameport said early on - namely that fire-rated downlights are rarely needed in houses (mainly only in flats, where there is a dwelling under different ownership/occupancy above the ceiling) - so they may well not even deserve C3s, let alone C2s. However ...
As you say, 'unsatisfactory' means that there must be at least one C2 (or even C1) - but if, as above, it's not the downlights, you're going to have to wait until you see the report to find out what the problem(s) is/are said to be - which could be something quite major, but may well be something(s) relatively trivial. To replace all the downlights before you even knew whether they were mentioned on the EICR would seemingly a bit bit on the crazy side, so I presume you were not contemplating doing that!

In other words, you can't cross the bridge until you come to it, and know what it looks like!

Kind Regards, John

I perhaps didn't explain very well but I've now had an email with a summary of the report and the only C2 is the ground floor non-fire rated downlights. There are one or two C3s. So in the tester's mind they are a failure. I've emailed back to say they passed building control in 2016 so what has changed? I suspect it's the Grenfell effect. Not a bad thing I suppose. Today fire-rated downlights seem to be a no brainer. 10 years ago they were significantly more expensive and you rarely saw them in the sheds.

 

[JohnW2]

I perhaps didn't explain very well but I've now had an email with a summary of the report and the only C2 is the ground floor non-fire rated downlights.

I suggest that you ask what regulation of BS7671 is allegedly being violated by the downlights (it should be mentioned on EICR)

If he can send you an e-mail, can't he also send you a scan of the actual EICR - in which case we would not be doing this 'remote control' stuff.

I remain unconvinced that there are necessarily any genuine C2s.

I should perhaps explain that, as far as I understand it, 'fire-rated' downlights is nothing to do with any hazard created by the lights but, rather, is simply to to slow the spread of fire from the room below to whatever is above, through the hole in the ceiling (i.e. as a 'fire barrier') - and, also as far as I am aware, such a 'fire barrier' is only required if 'what is above' is a different dwelling ... but others may want to correct me if I'm wrong.

Kind Regards, John

 

[hillsrob]

I suggest that you ask what regulation of BS7671 is allegedly being violated by the downlights (it should be mentioned on EICR)

If he can send you an e-mail, can't he also send you a scan of the actual EICR - in which case we would not be doing this 'remote control' stuff.

I remain unconvinced that there are necessarily any genuine C2s.

Kind Regards, John

I have used this company once before for a flat that I wanted to rent out. There seems to be a pattern developing. The full EICR is held back and only the non compliances are communicated with a quote for their rectification. Finally an ammended EICR is issued with the final bill. I will ask for more information when they email back. Thanks for your advice John.

 

[JohnW2]

I have used this company once before for a flat that I wanted to rent out. There seems to be a pattern developing. The full EICR is held back and only the non compliances are communicated with a quote for their rectification. Finally an ammended EICR is issued with the final bill.

In that case, you may have used them before, but I would be inclined to suggest that you don't use them again

I will ask for more information when they email back. Thank for your advice John.

You're welcome. If they cannot cite a specific regulation in BS7671 (with reg number) that the downlights are violating, then ask how they can justify any code, let alone a C2.

If it were me, I'd also be rather inclined to tell them that, even if remedial work is (genuinely) required on the basis of the EICR findings, you would be getting a number of quotes (implicit in which are 'second opinions' as to whether it actually needs to be done!) before even thinking of asking them to do it.

Kind Regards, John

 

[hillsrob]

In that case, you may have used them before, but I would be inclined to suggest that you don't use them again
You're welcome. If they cannot cite a specific regulation in BS7671 (with reg number) that the downlights are violating, then ask how they can justify any code, let alone a C2.

If it were me, I'd also be rather inclined to tell them that, even if remedial work is (genuinely) required on the basis of the EICR findings, you would be getting a number of quotes (implicit in which are 'second opinions' as to whether it actually needs to be done!) before even thinking of asking them to do it.

Kind Regards, John

You are right John but at this point I have an almost clean certificate to give the buyer. One or two C3s seem to be par for the course. I'm sure they could find more if they looked closely. Persuading them that the downlights are not a violation would be the best outcome. If they won't back down then a few hundred pounds spent to close the sale would be worth it.