Is downlight replacement notifiable work?

[JohnW2]

You are right John but at this point I have an almost clean certificate to give the buyer. One or two C3s seem to be par for the course. I'm sure they could find more if they looked closely. Persuading them that the downlights are not a violation would be the best outcome.

That's essentially what I'm suggesting. If they can't cite a specific regulation that is being violated and, despite that, still cannot explain why they gave it a code (any code, let alone a C2), you might perhaps be able to persuade them that they should 'remove it'. You could also 'threaten them' (or even do it!) that you might get another EICR done, by someone else, 'to compare'! If you just let them get away with doing, and charging you for, work they have invented the need for (possibly incorrectly), you will not have done yourself a service!

If they won't back down then a few hundred pounds spent to close the sale would be worth it.

As I said before, even if remedial work needs doing, I would at least try telling the prospective buyer that it was always the case that the house was being sold 'as seen' and that the asking price already took into account the fact that some work would be needed (at the buyer's expense).

Kind Regards, John

 

[hillsrob]

That's essentially what I'm suggesting. If they can't cite a specific regulation that is being violated and, despite that, still cannot explain why they gave it a code (any code, let alone a C2), you might perhaps be able to persuade them that they should 'remove it'. You could also 'threaten them' (or even do it!) that you might get another EICR done, by someone else, 'to compare'! If you just let them get away with doing, and charging you for, work they have invented the need for (possibly incorrectly), you will not have done yourself a service!
As I said before, even if remedial work needs doing, I would at least try telling the prospective buyer that it was always the case that the house was being sold 'as seen' and that the asking price already took into account the fact that some work would be needed (at the buyer's expense).

Kind Regards, John

The problem with that is that it has been totally refurbished. It's a 200 year old cottage and I've spent the last 13 years working on it. With hindsight I would have fitted fire-rated downlights but hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

[JohnW2]

The problem with that is that it has been totally refurbished. It's a 200 year old cottage and I've spent the last 13 years working on it. With hindsight I would have fitted fire-rated downlights but hindsight is a wonderful thing.

There isn't thatch above these downlights, is there - because that might possibly move the goalposts a bit?

You seem very sold on the idea of fire-rated downlighters but, as I've said, my understanding is that the main (maybe only) situation in which they are needed is to protect someone else's property (above yours) from a fire in your house - and that doesn't seem to be applicable in your case.

Kind Regards, John

 

[hillsrob]

There isn't thatch above these downlights, is there - because that might possibly move the goalposts a bit?

You seem very sold on the idea of fire-rated downlighters but, as I've said, my understanding is that the main (maybe only) situation in which they are needed is to protect someone else's property (above yours) from a fire in your house - and that doesn't seem to be applicable in your case.

Kind Regards, John

No. I'm told there was thatch once but I have photos going back 100 years or more and the roof was lower then but still clay tiles. Hopefully tomorrow will bring some justification for the coding. They might just back down and issue an EICR with only C3s.

 

[JohnW2]

No. I'm told there was thatch once but I have photos going back 100 years or more and the roof was lower then but still clay tiles. Hopefully tomorrow will bring some justification for the coding. They might just back down and issue an EICR with only C3s.

That would be my hope. As I've said, if they don't initially back down (assuming that they are not able to justify the coding), you might possibly be able to push them just enough by hinting/implying that you might get a second EICR done by someone else.

Kind Regards, John

 

[hillsrob]

That would be my hope. As I've said, if they don't initially back down (assuming that they are not able to justify the coding), you might possibly be able to push them just enough by hinting/implying that you might get a second EICR done by someone else.

Kind Regards, John

So here is the reply from the contractor:

I understand why you are asking the question and I can’t pass comment on what was previously passed as the regulations haven’t changed for some time.

As the rooms above the ground floor ceiling have sleeping and living quarters – any penetrations to the ceiling should be fire rated in order to maintain it’s level of fire resistance and to inhibit the spread of fire. The current ceiling has lost its fire rating due to the incorrect (non-fire rated) downlights being installed. It is potentially dangerous, were a fire to break out the fire could penetrate the ceiling more quickly and spread more easily.

The quote for remedials was £746 including VAT to replace 35 downlights. I have pointed out that 12 of the downlights are in a kitchen extension which has a sloping roof above with no habitable rooms above. I have asked for a revised quote.

 

[JohnW2]

As the rooms above the ground floor ceiling have sleeping and living quarters – any penetrations to the ceiling should be fire rated in order to maintain it’s level of fire resistance and to inhibit the spread of fire. The current ceiling has lost its fire rating due to the incorrect (non-fire rated) downlights being installed. It is potentially dangerous, were a fire to break out the fire could penetrate the ceiling more quickly and spread more easily.

Well, for a start, I'm not at all sure that (totally non-electrical) issues relating to fire resistance (as legally regulated by Part B of the Building Regulations) are within the scope of an EICR at all. We are, after all, not talking about anything electrical at all, merely the possible consequences of the hole in a ceiling created to house a downlight. As I said before, if there were an electrical problem they would be able to specify what regulation in BS7671 ("The Wiring Regulations") they claimed was being violated, and it seems that they can't. Again, I don't think that non-compliances with non-electrical Building Regulations should be considered by an EICR (although, of course, one would hope that any such problems would be 'brought to the attention' of the property owner).

That aside ... I hope someone else will jump in to confirm (or otherwise), since it is possible that I may not be up-to-date. However, as I keep saying, I did not think that their is a requirement (under Part B of the Building Regs) for any ceiling in a single-occupancy 2-storey dwelling to be a 'fire barrier' (beyond the baseline requirements for any ceiling), regardless of what sort of room is above it - such requirements only existing if what is above the ceiling is a different dwelling (i.e. under different occupancy). Can someone confirm, or otherwise, whether this is still correct?

The quote for remedials was £746 including VAT to replace 35 downlights. I have pointed out that 12 of the downlights are in a kitchen extension which has a sloping roof above with no habitable rooms above. I have asked for a revised quote.

As above, I remain unconvinced that replacement of any of them is actually required.

Also, have you actually discussed this with the prospective buyers? If not, it could be that they don;t want downlights at all, or wouldn't want the ones you might have fitted. If the first thing they would do after moving in would be to have the downlights ripped out, it would clearly be a bit ridiculous to you even think of spending money now to have new ones installed!!

Kind
Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

That aside ... I hope someone else will jump in to confirm (or otherwise), since it is possible that I may not be up-to-date. However, as I keep saying, I did not think that their is a requirement (under Part B of the Building Regs) for any ceiling in a single-occupancy 2-storey dwelling to be a 'fire barrier' (beyond the baseline requirements for any ceiling), regardless of what sort of room is above it - such requirements only existing if what is above the ceiling is a different dwelling (i.e. under different occupancy). Can someone confirm, or otherwise, whether this is still correct?

I've just tried to have a 'quick look', but the current version of Approved Document B" (guidance on Part B of the Building Regs), which can be downloaded here , is lengthy and complicated, and the answer I was looking for was not immediately obvious from a 'quick glance'. You might do better than me!

Kind Regards, John

 

[DetlefSchmitz]

If a ceiling is a fire barrier, there is much more to it than not having down-lights. Special plaster board is required. Don't know any details, but my next door neighbour converted an integral garage into a work room, together with smart glass front, but was required to provide a fire ceiling in case the use ever got converted back to a garage. He told me he had to use special plaster board to satisfy BC. So insisting on a fire barrier ceiling without insisting on rebuilding it sounds like a made up thing to extract money from people.

 

[endecotp]

If a ceiling is a fire barrier, there is much more to it than not having down-lights. Special plaster board is required.

I believe regular plasterboard is sufficient for a 30 minute fire barrier, which may be what is required here.

 

[JohnW2]

If a ceiling is a fire barrier, there is much more to it than not having down-lights. Special plaster board is required. Don't know any details, but my next door neighbour converted an integral garage into a work room, together with smart glass front, but was required to provide a fire ceiling in case the use ever got converted back to a garage. He told me he had to use special plaster board to satisfy BC. So insisting on a fire barrier ceiling without insisting on rebuilding it sounds like a made up thing to extract money from people.

Indeed. Since the great majority of ground floor ceilings have "sleeping or living quarters" above, if what they were claiming were true, then the vast majority of all downlights would have to be 'fire-rated', and I'm sure that is not the case!

Kind Regards, John

 

[DetlefSchmitz]

I believe regular plasterboard is sufficient for a 30 minute fire barrier, which may be what is required here.

As I said, I don't know a lot about it, so you may well be right. However for quite a while on this forum the general feeling (for what it's worth) is that fire-rated down-lights were only required when there was specifically a fire barrier in place, such as in a house with multiple occupancy.
Maybe someone with the time can produce some links to look at.

 

[denso13]

As the rooms above the ground floor ceiling have sleeping and living quarters – any penetrations to the ceiling should be fire rated in order to maintain it’s level of fire resistance and to inhibit the spread of fire.

As others have intimated a normal domestic property doesn't require ceilings to be fire rated. It's pointless fitting fire rated downlights into a non-fire rated ceiling!

 

[JohnW2]

As I said, I don't know a lot about it, so you may well be right. However for quite a while on this forum the general feeling (for what it's worth) is that fire-rated down-lights were only required when there was specifically a fire barrier in place, such as in a house with multiple occupancy.

Indeed and, as I've said, I'm as uncertain as you - although, like you, I know what 'most people seem to believe'. However, I recently wrote, there seems to be good circumstantial evidence that 'what most people believe' is probably correct since, if it weren't, there would be a requirement for the vast majority of down-lighters to be fire-rated - which we would surely have 'heard about' were it the case?

Maybe someone with the time can produce some links to look at.

A couple of messages ago I posted the link with which one can download Approved Doc B. The answer must be in there, somewhere, but it's pretty heavy going, and my '10 minutes quick skim through it' failed to find that answer!

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

I also agree with what John is saying regarding Fire-rated lights not being required.