Jason's thread

[Notch7]

The golf club isn't a democracy. It doesn't have political ideologies determining its decision. It doesn't have published social ambitions and projects to achieve those ambitions. It doesn't conduct governmental legislation for the benefit of its members.
A golf club does not exist for all within its geographical area, just for the benefit of its few members irrespective of their area of habitation, work, or social connections. It also exists for the benefit of its stake/stockholders. A golf club has to make a RoI (unless it's a municipal course, and even then it must make some RoI). A golf club can accept payments for favourable decisions. A golf club can unilaterally decide to change its business model, form joint enterprises with other businesses, or go into administration.
A golf club is not accountable to an elected body (nor its members). Its legislation is not accountable to a court.

Does the golf club suffer from mission creep.

 

[jasonzyx]

Does the golf club suffer from mission creep.

I think we have about exhausted the analogy of the golf club to the EU.

 

[durhamplumber]

would be like saying, "so the sea is not so deep (as most be people accept), so we could easily drain the ocean".

"Most people accept the sea is not so deep"? Who the hell are these "most people" you have been chatting to then????

 

[durhamplumber]

I think we have about exhausted the analogy of the golf club to the EU.

Yes,about 2 years ago...

 

[durhamplumber]

Fear of Foreigners.

The anti-EU campaigners feed it and prey on it.

View attachment 158810

You seem to fear foreigners,,you sure do yark on about them enough.

 

[Bodd]

The golf club isn't a democracy. It doesn't have political ideologies determining its decision. It doesn't have published social ambitions and projects to achieve those ambitions. It doesn't conduct governmental legislation for the benefit of its members.
A golf club does not exist for all within its geographical area, just for the benefit of its few members irrespective of their area of habitation, work, or social connections. It also exists for the benefit of its stake/stockholders. A golf club has to make a RoI (unless it's a municipal course, and even then it must make some RoI). A golf club can accept payments for favourable decisions. A golf club can unilaterally decide to change its business model, form joint enterprises with other businesses, or go into administration.
A golf club is not accountable to an elected body (nor its members). Its legislation is not accountable to a court.

So really the remoaners should stop comparing EU membership with golf club, shouldn't they.

It's not that simple

 

[Brigadier]

Thinking about a golf club going into administration made me think about the EU going into administration, if it were possible. Which then led me onto the multiple expressions of wishes or predictions of the EU disappearing into a black hole (or the many such predictions of the anti-EU brigade).

If some countries did follow the example of UK and declare an exit from EU, those countries would invariably be member states that are beneficiaries of EU funds, i.e. they receive more than they pay.
So the EU would become richer, or they could return more funds to the countries that remain, or they could ask fewer payments of the remaining members. There would also be more contributions of trade tariffs.
Whichever way you look at it, the exit of member states that benefit from being a member, would strengthen the EU, not weaken it.

Of the member states considering an exit from the EU, the UK is the only one currently paying more than they receive. (I think, I'll have to check.)

Edit
Just checked: Denmark and Sweden, nominal net contributors.
France and Italy, major net contributors.
Czech Republic, Ireland, Hungary and Greece major net beneficiaries.

So two countries (France and Italy) would be sorely missed.
Two others would make little difference (Denmark and Sweden).
The four (Czech Republic, Ireland, Hungary and Greece) maybe the EU would happily wave goodbye, even give them a golden handshake?

Maybe the overhaul increase in trade tariffs will be equivalent to their contributions.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/worl...ies-leave-bloc-follow-Britain-odds-favourites

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8036097.stm#start

Wishful thinking.

Getting richer as your market shrinks?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I clearly do understand the difference

No you don't, as you then go on to demonstrate.

I have free movement within the UK. That doesn't mean I don't have to pay to use the train, or the bus, etc, or to put petrol in my car.

I'm free to spend the night where I want. That doesn't mean that I don't have to pay to use hotels or B&Bs etc, or the running costs of my house.

Free trade means no restrictions on imports and exports.

I don't think I've ever once seen you challenge the advocates of trading just on WTO terms over the fact that WTO membership has to be paid for. One might almost think you were biased.

 

[durhamplumber]

No you don't, as you then go on to demonstrate.

I have free movement within the UK. That doesn't mean I don't have to pay to use the train, or the bus, etc, or to put petrol in my car.

I'm free to spend the night where I want. That doesn't mean that I don't have to pay to use hotels or B&Bs etc, or the running costs of my house.

Free trade means no restrictions on imports and exports.

I don't think I've ever once seen you challenge the advocates of trading just on WTO terms over the fact that WTO membership has to be paid for. One might almost think you were biased.

One might also think your analogies are flawed..Again.

 

[jasonzyx]

So really the remoaners should stop comparing EU membership with golf club, shouldn't they.

It's not that simple

There is nothing inherently wrong with using analogies to illustrate a point.
If those analogies are taken beyond the limits for which they were intended, they no longer become applicable analogies.
I don't know who or why the golf club analogy was introduced, I suspect it was to illustrate that if you stop paying the membership fees, you stop receiving the benefits, or something to that end.
Your extension of the payments and who pays what is slightly linked to the same theme, with the obvious lack of similarity that I indicated.
Therefore in that capacity, it is not a suitable analogy.

Extending that analogy into a discussion about mission creep is way outside of the original intended use of the analogy.

In general, in the original use of an analogy, the analogy may be applicable. But to extend the same analogy into areas for which it no longer suits the purposes, the analogy has outlived its usefulness.
To use an analogy
If one wants to explain feedback (acoustic) one might use the example of an echo, say in a valley.
If someone else then suggests that echos are no good for long distance secure communication, then the analogy has been taken way beyond its intended use, and its usefulness.

 

[Brigadier]

Free trade means no restrictions on imports and exports.

Provided those imports and exports meet all relevant Directives, regulations, etc.

 

[durhamplumber]

There is nothing inherently wrong with using analogies to illustrate a point.

ROFL...go for it dude..We have had brexit=golf clubs and Pizza,,,,fill your boots.

 

[durhamplumber]

There is nothing inherently wrong with using analogies to illustrate a point.
If those analogies are taken beyond the limits for which they were intended, they no longer become applicable analogies.
I don't know who or why the golf club analogy was introduced, I suspect it was to illustrate that if you stop paying the membership fees, you stop receiving the benefits, or something to that end.
Your extension of the payments and who pays what is slightly linked to the same theme, with the obvious lack of similarity that I indicated.
Therefore in that capacity, it is not a suitable analogy.

Extending that analogy into a discussion about mission creep is way outside of the original intended use of the analogy.

In general, in the original use of an analogy, the analogy may be applicable. But to extend the same analogy into areas for which it no longer suits the purposes, the analogy has outlived its usefulness.
To use an analogy
If one wants to explain feedback (acoustic) one might use the example of an echo, say in a valley.
If someone else then suggests that echos are no good for long distance secure communication, then the analogy has been taken way beyond its intended use, and its usefulness.

Blimey..Are you Sir Gal in disguise, only he on here uses 200 words when 10 will suffice.

 

[durhamplumber]

general, in the original use of an analogy, the analogy may be applicable. But to extend the same analogy into areas for which it no longer suits the purposes, the analogy has outlived its usefulness.
To use an analogy
If one wants to explain feedback (acoustic) one might use the example of an echo, say in a valley.
If someone else then suggests that echos are no good for long distance secure communication, then the analogy has been taken way beyond its intended use, and its usefulness.

Yes,,indeed..Yawnnnnnnnn

 

[jasonzyx]

Wishful thinking.

Getting richer as your market shrinks?

The EU does not have a market because it does not produce any goods or services. It is the market place, in a sense. It decides which traders it rents out stalls to. It decides the fees of those stalls, which might vary according to what traders are selling. It decides the quality of goods that are allowed.
If those outside of the small group of approved traders wish to sell their produce, the market place charges a higher fee for the stalls but still insists on the quality being met, and the prices being higher to meet the higher rent. If some goods are similar to those supplied by the group of approved traders, the market place may insist on a limit of goods sold.