LABC being uncooperative

[JohnW2]

A £150 EICR will sort everything out, unless you have some massive point to prove. Was accepted by my LABC when I did DIY work ....

It was a rhetorical question. It's gets the tick in the box ....

My understanding is that some, but not all, LABCs will accept a 'standard EICR' as being adequate to tick their ('notification') box.

EIC vs EICR .... that extra letter means it's got to be better right?

Clearly not - but the additional 'R' does make one theoretical difference. An EIC is (or should be!) completed by someone who has seen (usually undertaken) the work at all stages, even things which are no longer visible/accessible for inspection when the work has been completed. Similarly, when an LABC undertake (or arrange) 'inspections', they can if they so wish have such inspections undertaken at stages during the work before some aspects become 'un-inspectable'.

In contrast, the 'inspection' part of, a standard EICR' looks only at things which are usually visible or accessible - i.e. an EICR does not usually involving lifting floorboards etc., and certainly doesn't involve taking hammers and chisels to walls!

Even that section posted a few pages back says that the LA will (presumably depending on the extent of the work) get an electrician to carry out an EICR

That's what I've been saying all along, and I think is how the system is meant to work.

However, this whole discussion started because the OP's LABC apparently tried to tell him, that they 'would not accept' (the idea was a "non starter") a Building Notice from someone who was not 'qualified' to do all the required I&T - which I think is way beyond what they can do/say.

With the benefit of hindsight, I think that, ironically, the OP's mistake was in 'talking to the LABC'. If he has simply submitted a Building Notice to them, I think they would have been obliged to 'accept' it, and then would have had to do/arrange whatever they felt was necessary in relation to the I&T of the work that they had been told was about to commence. I think that's how it's meant to (and usually does) work.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

As I have been reading through the posts, the problem seems to be changing, first the LABC would not allow the work to be done, then they would but with some conditions, so I am now giving up on this thread, it is it seems an unwarranted moan at LABC.

 

[JohnW2]

As I have been reading through the posts, the problem seems to be changing, first the LABC would not allow the work to be done, then they would but with some conditions,

Maybe I've missed it, but I have not noticed any change. I thought the situation was still that the LZABC were telling the OP that for him to do the work (submit a Building Notice) was a "non starter". Have I missed something?

so I am now giving up on this thread, it is it seems an unwarranted moan at LABC.

That's obviously up to you. I don't personally do much moaning about LABCs, since nearly all my experiences oif dealing with them have been fairly happy ones - although I accept that others have had had different experiences.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

He has now stated he will be doing all the testing, to start with he said he wanted the LABC to test. I have moaned about the price, to do a job which took 2 hours, and for the LABC to charge £100 plus vat which is more than whole job cost seems daft, but in Wales they have no option. But they never said no to me.

 

[JohnW2]

He has now stated he will be doing all the testing, to start with he said he wanted the LABC to test.

He didn't say "all the testing",. What he wrote was ...

I will be doing testing throughout, and will probably invest a few hundred quid into testing equipment, but something like a multi-function tester would be an unjustifiable expense for me. ....
But if / when the BCO rocks up with his Megger around his neck, I'll have total certainty.

So, he is seemingly going to do some, but not all, testing and he still has the expectation that the LABC will probably also test (they;re very very unlikely to accept his test results, even for those things he is able to test) - per his "... when the BCO rocks up with his Megger .... And seeing as they have to do it anyway, why not lean on it.. "

But, @senfre_ , if you are contemplating spending "a few hundred quid" on test equipment,you could easily get a secondhand MFT - mine only cost around £200. If you felt 'competent to use it, you could then do all the testing required - but, as above, I would doubt that (*due to your lack of paper qualifications, no matter how 'competent') the LABC would accept your figures, so they would still have to do/arrange the testing themselves (which, as I keep saying, is my understanding of what they are meant to do).

Kind Regards, John

 

[senfre_]

As I have been reading through the posts, the problem seems to be changing, first the LABC would not allow the work to be done, then they would but with some conditions, so I am now giving up on this thread, it is it seems an unwarranted moan at LABC.

Think you're getting confused... I haven't heard from the LABC since I started the thread.. don't blame you - we have wondered a bit!

But, @senfre_ , if you are contemplating spending "a few hundred quid" on test equipment,you could easily get a secondhand MFT - mine only cost around £200.

I didn't consider second hand, will have a look around..

 

[JohnW2]

I didn't consider second hand, will have a look around..

You'll find umpteen on, for example, eBay. Unless they're expensive, they're not likely to have up-to-date 'calibration' (and to get that done would cost you a bit), but since you will not be undertaking 'definitive' measurements (since the LABC should do that, if that's what they want), that probably doesn't really matter.

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/throughout

 

[JohnW2]

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/throughout

Good grief - and it isn't even Friday evening.

As your dictionary (and I imagine most others) says, "throughout" relates to places or times ('throughout the UK', 'throughout last year') bit it implies nothing about 'what?' or (more in context) 'how much?' - and certainly doesn't necessary imply 'all'. I suspect that he meant "throughout the period when I'm doing the work' After all, as I said, we know that he is not currently equipped to do all of the required testing (although he told us that before I suggested he might be able to afford a secondhand MFT).

If I told you that I had "spent the weekend doing cleaning throughout the house" would you really take that to mean that I had done every possible bit of cleaning in every part of the house? Closer to home, if I told you that I had "inspected and tested sockets throughout my house", would you take that to necessary mean that I had inspected and tested every individual socket in every part of the house?

If either of those were your interpretation, then they would not correspond with my intended meaning - if I had meant "everything, everywhere', I would have said so more explicitly.

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

If I told you that I had "spent the weekend doing cleaning throughout the house" would you really take that to mean that I had done every possible bit of cleaning in every part of the house? Closer to home, if I told you that I had "inspected and tested sockets throughout my house", would you take that to necessary mean that I had inspected and tested every individual socket in every part of the house?

Senfre said "I will be doing testing throughout".

If either of those were your interpretation, then they would not correspond with my intended meaning - if I had meant "everything, everywhere', I would have said so more explicitly.

It was not you who said it.

 

[senfre_]

Fellas, for the sake of preserving an otherwise fruitful thread, please can we leave it and not devolve into semantic arguments..
I will be doing testing before, during, and on completion, but I'm not likely to have access to fully-calibrated, fully-capable testing equipment..
The LABC would also inspect & test the installation, and they would have the equipment I am lacking.
Therefore, whilst I will be doing some testing myself, I'm going to be a little reliant on their testing as well to cover what I can't.

Capeesh?

 

[JohnW2]

Senfre said "I will be doing testing throughout".

Indeed he did and, as I said (and consistent with your dictionary definition) I took that to mean that he would be undertaking testing "during the whole period of" his electrical work.

As I said, I did not take it to also mean 'all required testing' - not the least because he had told us that, at least currently, he does not have the means of doing that.

KInd Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

Fellas, for the sake of preserving an otherwise fruitful thread, please can we leave it and not devolve into semantic arguments..

EFLI loves semantic arguments but, as I implied, usually on Friday evenings

I will be doing testing before, during, and on completion, but I'm not likely to have access to fully-calibrated, fully-capable testing equipment..
The LABC would also inspect & test the installation, and they would have the equipment I am lacking.
Therefore, whilst I will be doing some testing myself, I'm going to be a little reliant on their testing as well to cover what I can't.

As I hope you realise, that has been my understanding all along - even if some people have seemingly had some difficulty in understanding what you have been telling us!

Kind Regards, John

 

[denso13]

The LABC would also inspect & test the installation,

Some of it, possibly not the non-notifiable parts. It's going to get quite expensive getting people in to test all this, perhaps several times.

 

[ericmark]

OK why test? Well we need to ensure that the protective devices will disconnect the supply within the prescribed time in the event of a fault.

So a MCB is two devices in one package, there is a thermal overload which will disconnect the supply if the current goes over the set limit in the fullness of time, but it is too slow to comply with the regulations, so we have the magnetic part which will disconnect in a fraction of a second, but it needs for a type B 3 to 5 times the rated current to flow.

So for example a B32 MCB will need 160 amp to flow to ensure it trips, well today we add another 5% as a safety margin, but lets keep it simple, so for 160 amp to flow using ohms law 230/160 = 1.44 Ω approx. So we need to measure less than 1.44 Ω, to get an accurate reading the regulations say the equipment should allow 200 mA to flow, however with many loop impedance testers only 9 mA flows so it will not trip the RCD, so that bit does not ring true. I do have a low ohm meter, but the standard multi-meter will measure down to 0.1 Ω so it may not comply, but should be good enough to show if likely to be within the limits.

We clearly don't want nuisance tripping, so we want the leakage to earth to be less than 9 mA, again my multi meter will measure that, it will not measure insulation resistance, I need another meter to do that but if the leakage is low then should be OK, again ohm's law, 230/1000000 = 0.23 mA which I can't measure, lowest is 1 mA, but that is measured with DC, with AC it will never get that low, due to inductive and capacitive linking, so in real terms if less than 3.5 mA per circuit you should be OK.

The RCD has a test button, so we know it works, but as to 30 mA in 40 mS only way is a RCD tester, but one would need to be very unlucky for it not to work.

So with the simple multi meter you should have a good idea if it will pass or not, but as to completing the schedule of results, no it's not good enough. However one can hire as I have said before, so the multi meter while work in progress, and hire a test set once complete. So £35 for multi meter and £50 at the end to hire the test set.

The LABC inspector will likely select some easy to access tests, if his result matches yours, then likely he will be satisfied without testing all, he has confirmed you have done testing. As to calibration certificate if his readings match yours then it must be near enough.

As to volt drop, well it does not really cause a danger, so unlikely to be tested.

However we are looking at around the £300 minimum to get the completion certificate, could cost more, but in real terms only worth it for a large job, with a full re-wire likely worth while, but for a consumer unit change likely cheaper to use a scheme member, and the scheme member will test after fitting a consumer unit, so do all the other work first, the pay for the consumer unit change, just not worth the hassle to DIY it.