LED Christmas Lights Conundrum!

I didn't mean the conductors were cooked, I meant the voltage drop along the length of the cable would be greater as you get further away. ... So the LEDs which all have the same forward voltage, would get a greater current where the voltage is higher, i.e. close to the power source.
Oh, I see. I suppose that's not impossible, but I think that we would then be back to the very unlikely, and an extremely unlikley 'co-incidence'. For one LED to fail because of prior excessive current, but to actually fail during an 11-month period of non-use (rather than when the excessive current was flowing) would be surprising enough - but for four to do that would, I would say, be 'extremely surprising'!

Mind you, give that the whole situation ('the end result') is itself 'extremely surprising', I suppose it would be foolish to dismiss any possibility!

Kind Regards, John
 
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If it was me I wouldn't necessarily have noticed if a few were blown before putting away without doing an inspection (remember, cognitive bias),
but anyway I'm not sure the failure modes of overdriven LEDs but maybe they were cracked or something and the storage let the dampness in (stored in the loft?)
Anyway you are very surprised but actually the law of expectation shows that there will be a lot of one in a hundred events happening, this has been shown to be the case that one in 1000000 events occur very often many times where common factors are at work that people have no idea about before hand! So the chance of 4 blowing is not the same as the chance of one blowing to the power of 4.
 
If it was me I wouldn't necessarily have noticed if a few were blown before putting away without doing an inspection (remember, cognitive bias),...
In most contexts, I would plead very guilty to that possibility, but in this particular case, I don't think it's likely. Because sporadic failures (and visible deteriorations) are relatively common, I make a point of inspecting and checking these things before 'putting them away', and label them "for attention" as necessary!
... but anyway I'm not sure the failure modes of overdriven LEDs but maybe they were cracked or something and the storage let the dampness in (stored in the loft?)
Cellar, actually, so probably worse than a loft! However, we're back to those 'unlikely co-incidences' yet again - for cracks/whatever to be present, and to result in dampness/whatever-related failure, in four adjacent LEDs would not be very likely 'by chance'!
Anyway you are very surprised but actually the law of expectation shows that there will be a lot of one in a hundred events happening, this has been shown to be the case that one in 1000000 events occur very often many times where common factors are at work that people have no idea about before hand! So the chance of 4 blowing is not the same as the chance of one blowing to the power of 4.
Sure - that's basic probability theory. If the probability of one blowing is 1 in N, then the probability of four blowing will only be 1 in N^4 if the events are totally independent of one another - and, as you say, that often isn't the case (and, as you also say, factors resulting in non-independence are often not known, or necessarily even suspected).

Indeed, at the other extreme, there are plenty of situations in which the events are totally non-independent. Sticking close to topic, the functioning of each of a number of bulbs in series is totally dependent upon the functioning of others - hence, if the probability of any one bulb in a string of 20 'going out' in a particular time period is 1 in N, then the probability of all 20 going out in that same time period is much greater than 1 in N (far, far, from 1 in N^20 !)....

.... if the probability of any one of the 20 bulbs failing in a given time period is 1 in N (and if failure of an individual bulb is random and independent of failure of any others), then the probability of 20 'going out' in the same time period is actually roughly (I won't bore you with the technical reason for that!) 1 in N/20 (essentially since there are 20 possible events {single bulb failures} any of which can lead to all 20 going out). In other words if the probability of any one bulb failing in a given period were 1 in 100 (1%), the probability of all 20 going out in that period would be roughly 1 in 5 (20%).

However, since you raised these matters of probabilities, it sounds as if I probably have not been clear enough in what I've been saying about my 'surprise', and "my suspiciousness about what appear to be amazing co-incidences" (and, indeed, the reason for this thread) ....

I suppose I should have been more precise but what I've been trying to say is that IF the failure of individual LEDs WERE totally random and totally independent of the failure of any other LED, then I would be extremely surprised by that, and suspicious about the apparent 'amazing co-incidence' of what I was observing - and therefore that it seemed probable that factors (such as some of those you have suggested) were probably at work, such that failure of one LED was not independent of failure of others. Hence this thread, in an attempt to see if anyone could think of any such factors which I have overlooked.

This is, in fact, essentially the concept which underlies the entire subject of Statistical Inference, which is central to so must research. If it can be shown that the probability of observed facts being 'due to chance' (random and independent events) is extremely small, then the conclusion is that some 'factor(s)' must be responsible for what has been observed. In the case of carefully controlled experiments (like testing a treatment in a particular disease), one does everything one can to think of and control/eliminate all but one factor which might affect the result - so if one is fairly successful in eliminating all but one possible 'factor' (e.g. 'the treatment'), if the probability of the observed result being 'due to chance' is very low, then this is taken to mean that the observed result was probably due to that one known factor (e.g. the treatment).

Kind Regards, John
 
maybe the four that failed were from the same batch of defective manufacture, the quality control on these non critical mass produced elements has low stanfards.
 
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I've never done the investigation, but I have always wondered what characteristics of the leds allows the assumption in that configuration that they will current share reasonably.
 
I have always wondered what characteristics of the leds allows the assumption in that configuration that they will current share reasonably

Each element has its own current control resistor built into the element. This resistor consists of two or three layers of semiconductor materials underneath the light emitting layers.
 
Ah I see. I hadn't noticed that type as we don't use them. They are more available than I imagined.
 
maybe the four that failed were from the same batch of defective manufacture, the quality control on these non critical mass produced elements has low stanfards.
Another possibility, but for that to result in what I'm observing would come with various requirements, and would leave the question as to why all four failed during storage, not when in use.

Kind Regards, John
 
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I've never done the investigation, but I have always wondered what characteristics of the leds allows the assumption in that configuration that they will current share reasonably.
I've often wondered that, too

Each element has its own current control resistor built into the element. This resistor consists of two or three layers of semiconductor materials underneath the light emitting layers.
I'm not sure that would be of very much help in terms of current-sharing (unless the internal resistance {whether deliberate or 'incidental'} were so large as to make the devices inefficient). Given that the internal resistance (again, whether deliberate or 'incidental') is like to be pretty similar between devices, the primary determinant of current sharing will be variation of the Vfs of the individual LED elements. Hence, when all the 'packages' (LED + internal resistance, Ri) have the same voltage (V1) across them, the current through each 'package' will be (V1-Vf)/Ri - so, if Vfs vary appreciably (and the Ris are much the same), then so will the currents.

Without any internal resistance at all (but an external 'common' current-limiting resistor), I suppose that, theoretically, only one of the LEDs in parallel (the one with the lowest Vf) would light - but that's not something I've ever seen.

Ah I see. I hadn't noticed that type as we don't use them. They are more available than I imagined.
It seems that they don't need to be 'that type'. I've just done an experiment with half a dozen of the cheapest and nastiest red LEDs that I have. I haven't yet measured the currents through each one, but with them all in parallel and a single common resistor, they all illuminate, and my eyes cannot detect any difference between the brightness of the various LEDs.

I can but presume that, even for these cheap and nasty LEDs, there is very little variation in Vf. It's not something I know much about, but that doesn't necessarily surprise me, since I suspect that the Vf is far more a consequence of the properties of the semiconductor materials involved than anything to do with manufacture.

Kind Regards, John
 
come on John. Less typing, and more practical testing/disecting to find the cause!
I wish I could.

However, as I've said and implied, I can't see what non-destructive investigation I can do, and I am loath to destroy it, given that 80% of the lights (and all 'adjacent' ones) are still working fine.

Given that the 16 downstream LEDs are still working fine, the wiring in/out of the first four LEDs must still be OK (with continuity throughout). Those in/out connections disappear into the 'moulded' bases of each LED, and even if I destroyed the moulding, it's fairly unlikely that I would discover anything useful, other than that the LED element was 'dead' (or, conceivable, 'disconnected'). Did you have other things in mind?

Kind Regards, John
 
there can't be 20 leds in series, so I was thinking you would be able to cut 4 out and leave the rest working.
or removing some insulation around the 4, to probe each end of the 4 off leds with a DVM on diode mode to understand how many of the 4 light dimly.
 
there can't be 20 leds in series,...
Indeed - as I've said, they are clearly in parallel.
... so I was thinking you would be able to cut 4 out and leave the rest working.
Yes, I could do that.
... or removing some insulation around the 4, to probe each end of the 4 off leds with a DVM on diode mode to understand how many of the 4 light dimly.
I don't fully understand what you are suggesting. Do you mean the insulation of the cable (which wouldn't be very helpful)? The actual 'bases' of the LEDs (into which the in and out wires disappear) seem to be 'solid' mouldings - and if that's the case, I'm not sure that I would be able to dig anything out of it without destroying everything. However, as I said, if I could get inside them I think there's probably only two things I might discover - either that the wires have become disconnected from the LED elements (seems incredibly unlikely for four of them!) or that the LED elements simply don't light when ~3V (which is roughly what's being supplied by the wiring) is applied to them.

Kind Regards, John
 
Most likely those 4 have died as a result of excess current given they are closest to the supply. The cheap LEDs that tend to get used are particularly intolerant of thermal damage.

Are they soldered directly to the wiring string?
 
Most likely those 4 have died as a result of excess current given they are closest to the supply. The cheap LEDs that tend to get used are particularly intolerant of thermal damage.
Yes, that was one of my early thoughts. They were certainly very 'cheap and nasty'. I bought a job lot of sets (so that I had some spares) a few years ago, for next-to-nothing. The sets which have been used are only used for a few dozen hours each Christmas, and this is the first time I have had any 'failures'.

However, yet again, that possible explanation somewhat stretches my credulity ('co-incidence'-wise). For four of them to die simultaneously for that reason, during a period of storage (or, more likely, at the moment of switch-on after that period of non-use) would seem incredibly unlikely (remember that, because of my practice of 'end-of-season checking', I'm all-but-certain that they were all working when I put them away last year).

I obviously don't know (but hate to think!) how small the CSA of the cable (hence VD) might be but, for what it's worth, there is no discernible difference between the apparent brightness of the first and last LEDs in the string of 20. Given how fine the conductor might be, I'm reticent to cut into, or attempt to 'penetrate' any of the wires. What I really need is a DC clamp mA meter - something I certainly don't have, and didn't even realise existed until quite recently!
Are they soldered directly to the wiring string?
Well, they are 'connected' directly to the wiring string. As I said, the in and out wires (twisted pairs) disappear into what looks like a solid lump of plastic - so, at the moment, I couldn't say whether the connections are soldered, welded, crimped, 'jammed into something' or what!

I think I'll probably do as Andy suggested - cut off the four dead ones (and replace them, at least temporarily, with a ~180Ω resistor - to reduce the risk of a similar fate befalling some of the remaining LEDs!) and then see if I can get into one of them - not that I expect there to be much hope of my discovering anything particularly useful!

Kind Regards, John
 

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