New fuse box needed - would it be easier to become an electrician than employ one?

[Arbu]

AIUI there's no LEGAL requirement to upgrade the existing installation.
It was regs-compliant at time of install.

There is probably little to no fire risk from that fusebox as it's made from a Bakelite type of plastic rather than thermosplastic that some later boxes were made from that could melt at far lower temperatures and feed in to a fire starting within a consumer unit. (Mind so will the plastic coatings of the cables to the circuits).

Do you own the Lease for this Property or rent the Property from the owner of said Lease? Is it the Freeholder of the Building (or his Managing Agent) that is trying to bamboozle you with this requirement, or your Landlord if you are a Tenant and rent? Get the request and reasoning behind it in writing?

Now in all fairness you would be very wise to consider updating that Consumer Unit with a modern one. Perhaps even sort out some extra circuits and rewiring. (e.g. add mains interlinked smoke alarms). That independent electrician has simply quoted for a modern equivalent of the current 4 way board. The maker is Hager. Each of the 4 circuits will now be Residual Current and Overload protected which is better than what you have now. Only the metal enclosure for the new consumer will affect the fire safety / spread --- and only if installed correctly with such matters in mind.

Thanks, very helpful. I am the leaseholder, yes. The freeholder is referred to as the Landlord in the lease, so that's who I'm referring to. As I have said, it's a long lease. I'm happy to get it replaced based on what you say. Here's the request from the Landlord:

"
Here are the two reports for your installation.

You will note that there are several items that are noted as being in need of urgent improvement, and I would be grateful if you could make arrangements for dealing with these in the near future. The lack of RCDs is a particular insurance risk as a short-circuit could cause a fire.

You are, of course, free to choose another electrician to do the work, provided that they are a Competent Person and can self-certify their work, with paryticular reference to the recommended replacement of your Consumer Unit (formerly known as a fuseboard).

I will need to disclose to insurers that there are some C2 works recommended for your flat, and they may impose a time limit for doing them."

Easier for me to get RCDs, rather than argue about it, and it sounds as if it's worthwhile anyway. So I'm hoping if I replace the fuse board he will shut up. A lot of the other items identified as C2 should not be so, according to my independent electrician and I'm more inclined to argue over those if I have to.

 

[Murdochcat]

What are the C2’s ?

Shame you didn’t disclose ALL the information earlier

Google electrical safety council best practice guide No 4, issue 6

 

[Rodders53]

The lack of RCDs is a particular insurance risk as a short-circuit could cause a fire.

Rowlocks. RCDs are to protect life.
The existing fuses protect from current overloading and, to some extent, a potential fire caused by such an overcurrent fault as much as the more modern MCB might.

You may be wise to ask on a more legal lease / insurance type forum if EICR 'C2's in non-common areas of the building (i.e. your domestic dwelling) affect the premiums charged to Freeholder Landlord-managing Policies. MSE may be one such place?
The Insurers may well not give a fig even if notified (and that him telling the Insurers may be just a 'threat' he has no intention of following through on).

You are, of course, free to choose another electrician to do the work, provided that they are a Competent Person and can self-certify their work

Sounds very much like your "Landlord" wanting his pet sparks to get some premium paid work from you.

 

[Arbu]

What are the C2’s ?

Shame you didn’t disclose ALL the information earlier

Google electrical safety council best practice guide No 4, issue 6

There's too much of it, and my independent electrician has already said that a lot of them should be C3s. I wasn't looking for advice on that here.

 

[Arbu]

Rowlocks. RCDs are to protect life.
The existing fuses protect from current overloading and, to some extent, a potential fire caused by such an overcurrent fault as much as the more modern MCB might.

You may be wise to ask on a more legal lease / insurance type forum if EICR 'C2's in non-common areas of the building (i.e. your domestic dwelling) affect the premiums charged to Freeholder Landlord-managing Policies. MSE may be one such place?
The Insurers may well not give a fig even if notified (and that him telling the Insurers may be just a 'threat' he has no intention of following through on).


Sounds very much like your "Landlord" wanting his pet sparks to get some premium paid work from you.

Maybe. He's just sent me a quote to replace one of my windows, saying it's in its "twilight years". Seems alright to me.

 

[Risteard]

That's exactly the problem. No-one is replying. I suppose I should start phoning them up instead of emailing.

I've been given these specifications for the new fuse box by an independent electrician:

1 x VML108SPDRK 8-way board with 100A main SW and SPD2 x ADA332G 32A RCBO: type A2 x ADA306G 6A RCBO: type A4 x JK01B Blank module. It looks like they would cost about £150. I've been given a quote of £450 for a new unit by the one NICEIC electrician who replied but he gives no details with his quote - for all he has said he could be providing an equally basic unit as the current one. And now he's gone quiet.

I'd quite like to buy the parts myself and then get someone to fit them. Maybe someone will agree to that.

No good Electrician will entertain you buying the materials.

 

[Risteard]

Untrue^^
An example fused neutrals were once permissible. They are now illegal - as in unlawful, prohibited and proscribed. Even if the installation complied at the time of consutruction they still remain illegal and outlawed.

Hear, hear! One of my favourite points to make.

We don't assess compliance at the time of installation, but rather safety in terms of our current understanding.

 

[robinbanks]

I have already fixed the second issue by paying £7 to get some dimmable lightbulbs, and the fact that it was so easy makes me feel that these electricians are trying to rip me off

Erm, did you just imply that demonstrating capacity for changing a light bulb puts you on par with a qualified electrician?

I suppose, by the same measure, cutting your child's nails proves you ready for a career as a paediatric surgeon?

 

[ericmark]

“qualified person” means a person competent to undertake the inspection and testing required under regulation 3(1) and any further investigative or remedial work in accordance with the electrical safety standards;

That is what is required to be an electrician, no reference to any exams of apprenticeship. The next bit not so easy

“electrical safety standards” means the standards for electrical installations in the eighteenth edition of the Wiring Regulations, published by the Institution of Engineering and Technology and the British Standards Institution as BS 7671: 2018(3);

but in each edition of BS 7671 we have

BS 7671:2008 Requirements for Electrical Installations was issued on 1st January 2008 and is intended to come into effect on 1st July 2008. Installations designed after 30st June 2008 are to comply with BS 7671:2008.

each edition will have some thing similar it is just I have the 2008 version to hand.

However the regulations also refer to "BS 7671:2008 includes changes necessary to maintain technical alignment with CENELEC harmonisation documents. A summary of the main changes is given below." and other regulations which may have changed since the last issue, so although the installation may comply with the relevant edition of BS 7671 there may be CENELEC documents which require some change.

To do the work yourself you would need to get the LABC inspector to agree that you have the skill. My son was working as a sole trader electrician when part P came in, and needed to get the LABC inspectors to issue the completion certificates, he worked in Liverpool, Cheshire and Flintshire, Liverpool were no problem, Cheshire were OK, but Flintshire were really tight on who they allowed to do the work. Even with a C&G 2391 (the inspection and testing exam) Flintshire took some persuading to allow us to do the work. I had to do the inspection and testing since I had a degree, they would not let my son do it, not what we wanted as my son had the insurance not me. This was the last job he did domestic, he moved into the commercial sector mainly as they pay better.

When it came time to re-wire parents house, we used an electrical firm, even when both my son and I are electricians, one for speed, it was costing a lot of money to have my mother in a care home while the work was done, and two because we did not want the repeat the experience we had the last time trying to get the LABC to issue a completion certificate.

When the house was sold, I could not at first find the paperwork, and the council could not provide replacements for 4 months and it would cost however long it took the council worker to find them, the originals did turn up, and reading them it was impossible to work out who did what work, so in real terms useless.

So if you get a scheme member to swap the consumer unit, it will not be easy for anyone to show what bits of the EICR have or have not been rectified.

I do see the problem reading the regulations as it says "See the definition of “private landlord” in section 122(6) of the Housing and Planning Act 2016." so you would need to read that to find out if your landlord is considered as a “private landlord” not easy I will admit.

 

[Murdochcat]

Untrue^^
An example fused neutrals were once permissible. They are now illegal - as in unlawful, prohibited and proscribed. Even if the installation complied at the time of construction they still remain illegal and outlawed.

Not totally convinced that they are "illegal" - certainly non compliant and its a very long time since I saw any

 

[chivers67]

Had a Fused neutral in our AMF panels - French design. Had a project to take every one of them out and replace with a Shunt.

 

[Jurassicspark]

Not totally convinced that they are "illegal" - certainly non compliant and its a very long time since I saw any

Had to say the word illegal to scare the OP.

 

[securespark]

Had to say the word illegal to scare the OP.

WTF?

 

[Murdochcat]

Had to say the word illegal to scare the OP.

That’s simply not acceptable

 

[markyd1]

That's exactly the problem. No-one is replying. I suppose I should start phoning them up instead of emailing.

I've been given these specifications for the new fuse box by an independent electrician:

1 x VML108SPDRK 8-way board with 100A main SW and SPD2 x ADA332G 32A RCBO: type A2 x ADA306G 6A RCBO: type A4 x JK01B Blank module. It looks like they would cost about £150. I've been given a quote of £450 for a new unit by the one NICEIC electrician who replied but he gives no details with his quote - for all he has said he could be providing an equally basic unit as the current one. And now he's gone quiet.

I'd quite like to buy the parts myself and then get someone to fit them. Maybe someone will agree to that.

Are you the Landlord or the tenant?