Old wife's tail, myths, and other stories we were told as an apprentice, before the days when BS 7671 started.

That's a bit absurd. Couldn't he spur off a socket?
Maybe, but to spur off the upstairs sockets would likely have meant digging out walls, whereas he could pull a new cable from crawlspace to loft through the cavity. Guess he could have tied it into a socket circuit in/near the CU, but for whatever reason he put it on it's own circuit.

He could have even got the supply from a lighting circuit if that was the only load.
I doubt someone who thought taking a socket off an immersion was verbotten would have been comfortable taking a socket off a lighting circuit either.

Ridiculous, was he desperate for extra work?
He initially removed the loft socket completely and only promised to reinstate it (and we ended up doing a temporary setup with an extension lead fed off the JB he had put in in the meantime) when we complained.

He seemed to think he couldn't issue a certificate for the installation if their was a socket on the immersion, and who were we to argue back. All we had was DIY books.

I was a teenager at the time, so I wasn't directly talking to the electrian, I was talking to my parents who in turn were talking to the electrian.
 
Sponsored Links
the electrican was insistent that a socket on the immersion circuit was not allowed, and in the end we ended up with a dedicated circuit just for the loft socket.
Ridiculous, was he desperate for extra work?
You may well be right in relation to suggesting a dedicated circuit for the roof socket.

However, as for "insisting that a socket on the immersion circuit was not allowed" he was perhaps just a 'strict Jobsworth'. An immersion circuit usually has a 16A MCB, (13A of which is 'used up' by the immersion) and the regs require that the rating of an MCB (In) be no less than the 'design current' (Ib) of a circuit. Whilst 'design current' is a somewhat nebulous concept in a situation like this, some might feel that it was stretching things to say that even a single socket, let alone a double one, increased the 'design current' of a circuit by only 3A !
 
The changing way we use the immersion heater could mess up @JohnW2 argument, yes my immersion rated 3 kW, but rare it uses 3 kW, most times when I look I see something like this 1717659717930.png by time there is enough sun to run at 3 kW the water is already hot.

As said before I think the iboost+ was an error, as once we get the export payment sorted out, we will get more for exporting than we pay to import in the middle of the night, so the best option is likely to have a simple timer which turns on the immersion during off peak, which means it runs around 1 am to 5 am, a time when we are rather unlikely to use the sockets.

The changes are not just immersion heater, lighting has so little load today with the use of LED lighting. And also the lighting load has moved to sockets, the 150 watt tungsten bulb in centre of my living room may have worked, by time we moved in pearl 150 watt bulbs were long gone, even swapping the single pendent to a 8 bulb chandelier so 48 watt of LED light, the light was too much weighted into the centre of the room, no easy access into ceiling/upper floor space, so we fitted cabinet lights to light the dark area of the room 20230227_170900_1.jpg these are powered from sockets, and we use google Nest Mini and voice control to turn them on when required, well mainly it is the turn off option, so one voice command turns off all living room lights as we leave the room, with these and up lighters, spot lights etc. The total wattage for living room is more like 120 watt, so much for LED's using less power!

But the whole diversity question is complex, my cooker is rated 12455 watt, however clearly with an induction hob it uses less than the cooker it replaced, so it still says use a 32 amp supply even if it can use 54 amp. I do not think I have used boost other than to compare speed to boil water when compared with gas, around twice as fast, the saying "Now were cooking on gas" now means the reverse to what it did when I was a child.

We had cabinet lights in the last house, never used, as the switch was not handy, this house rare they are not used at some point in the day, and the kitchen socket load has also changed a lot, deep fat frier, air frier, filter coffee maker, microwaves, pressure cookers, all using sockets, and the stand alone cooker hardly used. The air frier does so much, a lasagna single serving cooks great in it, using a fraction of the power to run the main oven.

I do find it needs some education however, my wife would start jacketed potatoes in the microwave and then complete with the pizza in the oven, the problem is a micro wave uses power in the main the whole time it is running, however the air frier uses power to get hot, then one switches on a few time after for a very short time to maintain the temperature, so all in all uses less power.

Since I was a lad the whole way of living seems to have changed, we had louvered windows to keep the kitchen cool, the Aga was never out for long, coke was a by product from the steel works, and was very cheap, it would be dumped on out drive entrance ½ ton at a time, some times more, and as a lad it was my job to use the wheel barrow to get it in the bunkers at back of house. All cooking was done on the Aga, which had dampers to adjust how the oven was heated, similar to today's ovens with electric, so much more controllable than gas, but the hot plate was down to where one put the pan, it needed some skill to use, including when to put the hot plate covers down. And the side boiler heated the DHW and a radiator in my bedroom, the only radiator in the house.

Kitchen floor was quarry tiled so one could if required rake out the fire, house poor designed as the living room fire would draw air through the house so we had easy chairs with high backs so we did not feel the draft. Small holes and a tray built into the steel window frames to direct condensation from the windows outside.

And the ring final was wired in 7/0.029 which was larger than the 2.5 mm² used today, so spur off a spur was not really a problem, yes still could be overloaded, but also fuse was 30 amp not 32 amp, and the line pin of the 13 amp plug was solid brass so would conduct heat from the fuse away from the plug far better. And bakelite was also a better colour to radiate heat to white plastic.

And electric flowed from positive to negative, it was only as I got older it reversed, then as I got older still found it alternated.

I had a dynamo on my bike that produces AC, but the dynamo on the car produced DC. Do you remember the tubes with batteries to keep lights on when you stopped on the bike? How did they work when dynamo produced AC?
 
The changing way we use the immersion heater could mess up @JohnW2 argument, yes my immersion rated 3 kW, but rare it uses 3 kW, most times when I look I see something like this View attachment 345291 by time there is enough sun to run at 3 kW the water is already hot.
I think you are probably over-complicating this discussion and the possible "argument" I presented, by talking about 'new-fangled' things.

The OP was very probably talking about a standard 'immersion circuit' in a property with only a grid supply - namely a dedicated circuit connecting the grid supply through a 16A OPD to a ("3kW") immersion heater. As I said, some (maybe many) people might well feel that it was 'stretching things' to claim that the "design current" of that circuit was 16A or less if there were a socket, as well as the immersion, fed by the circuit - and if, more realistically, one regarded the 'design current' as being greater than 16A, then the circuit would be non-compliant.

Indeed, even if one moves to the 'new-fangled' situation, in which the immersion may be fed from solar or batteries, if (as I imagine is usually the case) it is nevertheless possible that the immersion could, at times, be fed from the grid supply, then what I have written above still applies.
 
Sponsored Links
Remember I mentioned a defect on a PIR because two immersion heaters (Bog Standard 3KW) were on one circuit with 6mm cable to the first and the second one a couple of feet away was then linked by a piece of 2.5 , they both had SFCUs so I have no idea what defect was contemplated other than the 13A fuses could overheat. I did wonder what comment would have been made if they were 20A DP switches?
 
I know my immersion heater controller can be used with two immersion heaters, and they both don't work together, but since I only have one, I have never looked at how it works with two.
 
Yes Eric, I should imagine pretty much a change over type use of switching could be utilised, or even using a series parallel arrangement switching arrangement could have some (limited) uses.
Sometiomes as a one off situation you can see the merits fir that particular user but for some others you wonder what they were attempting to achieve, it can make life interesting at times.

take the classic "Widow Maker" - two plugs, one at either end of a flex - I`ve seen such in situ but thankfully for a BT plug and socket arrangement.
 
I saw in Turkey many of the "Widow Maker" in use, seems they are a little more careful than British and manage not to kill themselves. However it nearly did result in me being set upon. We had an electricians mate, and he was given the job of putting plugs and sockets on yellow artic cables so 5 extension leads from 100 meters of cable. He had loads to do, and during the job he swapped makes of plugs and sockets and some how with the repetitive job got the boxes mixed up and made some with plugs on both ends.

He was rather upset having to re-do the work, but I rubbed it in by picking up a bit of scrap cable in a loop then his extension lead saying hey you have done it again and snipping the scrap cable, good job I was a good runner.

But as to emergency supplies the norm is not to do all, so one has an emergency supply consumer unit plugged into the standard supply, so one can easy unplug from standard and plug into a generator. The earth rod is also connected to the generator so there is no way the two supplies can be connected at the same time, however it is when people try to copy where the problem lies.

In the main the danger is the earthing arrangement, clearly with a TN system not only can we not rely the grid TN earth, but since it may be TN-C-S and the fault causing the loss of supply could be a loss of PEN, we should really disconnect the grid TN earth, I am reasonably sure my system does not do this. It may disconnect the grid earth for the emergency supply and instead connect to the earth rod, but it does not disconnect the earth from the non emergency supply which may not be powered up, but still means two earth systems in the same house.

I have considered this, but only one power cut in 5 years of any time, the UPS system is more to give peace of mind than really required, after 1978-79 I will not trust the electric supply for heating the home, I had a house with hot air gas central heating, which if it failed could always use a electric fan heater, but when it failed due to regular power cuts, with a single glazed house, with no chimney so no option of using solid fuel or gas without electric, the house got very cold, so shortly after we move house to one with a flue brick and a gas fire so home could be heated with no electric. This house has a grate and chimney, never put a fire in it, but I have the option. And the solar panels and UPS will likely mean central heating will work anyway. However after 1978-79 heat pump to cool yes, but as only way to heat, it's a non starter.
 
Eric,
how does that compare to a TNC-S with back up earth rod (or earthed by common waterpipe/gaspipe bonding etc) if the PEN is lost? i know quite a few recommend an earth rod/mat etc as backing up PME but have never heard of someone having soil that is effectively a "Voltage Mountain" I suppose horses and cattle might not like it though.
 
Eric,
how does that compare to a TNC-S with back up earth rod (or earthed by common waterpipe/gaspipe bonding etc) if the PEN is lost? i know quite a few recommend an earth rod/mat etc as backing up PME but have never heard of someone having soil that is effectively a "Voltage Mountain" I suppose horses and cattle might not like it though.
Which brings me back to the hazard of working in a property where the outbuilding TT earth was the only earth on a substation and that was only via a 1 or 1.5mm² T&E earth on a circuit on the outbuilding submain CU for a Koi pond and swimming pool.
1717846712142.png

And it was plenty to light a 40 or 60W bulb.
1717846989915.png

5 pages of the situation: https://www.diynot.com/diy/threads/a-real-moan-tonight.552183/
 
Blimey, I had a case where some fish were not happy till replaced a faulty enclosure.
Replacement done and they became happy bunnies again.

You probably read the one a while back, a mate covered for me whislt I was on holiday.
A customer reported a faulty outside socket so he isolated it and used an extension from an inside socket, pond pump then worked again, but he got a shock? LOL
 
Eric, ... how does that compare to a TNC-S with back up earth rod (or earthed by common waterpipe/gaspipe bonding etc) if the PEN is lost? i know quite a few recommend an earth rod/mat etc as backing up PME ....
Indeed. You will recall that it was only at the eleventh hour that a requirement for an earth rod with any earth system (including TN-C-S) was removed from the draft of BS7671:2018. It would not surprise me if it re-appears in the next edition.

Furthermore, as you imply, even though there is an increasing prevalence of plastic water/gas supply pipes, there are nevertheless still many millions of TN installations (many of which are TN-C-S) in the UK that have a connection between the TN earth to 'true earth' via a bonded extraneous-c-p (or which an explicit 'TT electrode' is but one example).

Kind Regards, John
 
Exactly and also the reason for earthing of pipework on one property by virtue of main bonding, can give an apparent earth on a nearby property with bonding/earthing even if the TNS sheath has a proper break prior to the cut out, you do not find it by doing a Ze the lazy way (bonding attached) but might do with bonding disconnected.
 
Exactly and also the reason for earthing of pipework on one property by virtue of main bonding, can give an apparent earth on a nearby property with bonding/earthing even if the TNS sheath has a proper break prior to the cut out, you do not find it by doing a Ze the lazy way (bonding attached) but might do with bonding disconnected.
... and, as you will probably recall, that is exactly the situation with my installation ... with main bonding disconnected, the Ze is usually 50Ω - 75Ω, depending on weather/soil conditions (my TT rod), but with the bonding connected, it is usually about 0.25Ω (assumed to be my neighbour's TN-C-S, via a metal water pipe)

Kind Regards, John
 
yes John exactly so, to test Ze with bonds still attached could bring grief next week/month/year but some folk you cannot convince them.
and if no RCD as supplementary protection then blooming heck and hecky thump
 

DIYnot Local

Staff member

If you need to find a tradesperson to get your job done, please try our local search below, or if you are doing it yourself you can find suppliers local to you.

Select the supplier or trade you require, enter your location to begin your search.


Are you a trade or supplier? You can create your listing free at DIYnot Local

 
Sponsored Links
Back
Top