Plate heat exchanger or internal coil

Dr Drivel, I am sorry to see that you are back again posing under yet another new name of Thermal Man. I have to say that I thought Dr Drivel was more appropriate!

Its a pity that whilst you are obviously quite knowledgeable about some things you are unable to moderate your dislike of plumbers!

For newcomers, in his day he was a graduate engineer working on the design of burners for commercial boilers. Since then he seems to have spent a little time with cylinder/store manufacturers.

For several years now he has been retired and living in a flat in Surrey with a cheap boiler! He reads all about things on manufacturers web sites and only knows what he can read. He even thought a common combi did not modulate and all because thats so well known the makers did not specifically say that it modulated. Something every boiler engineer would know!

Tony
 
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My name is also Gayton Tonner but I have been banned from posting with that name ( as well as all my other names ). Soon to be banned as Thermal Man as well.

I am rather stupid, as are many other posters here. I just concur with them.

I cannot even change pumps on boilers. I have never done any CORGI course, and used to work on the milk round. I have never seen a thermal store so I just read about them. I haven't a clue how they work, even if simple enough.

I haven't anything sensible to write about on the topic in question, I should eff off from the thread. I am a waste of space.
 
Thank you,
For all the interesting points, obviously you have differing points of view as to the effectiveness and usefulness of a thermal store.

The present store (which has the leak) has a recommended boiler size of 12kw. I have a 12kw boiler, when I did the heat calculations for my house, it requires no more than 10kw. the present store gives me 25ltrs/min @ 55degC.

I am not using the store for heating just DHW, so the stat is set at 60degC.

The gas bill for the summer quarter was £35 including cooking, I'm pleased with that.

All the useful posts have help me decide.

Thanks again,
Colin
 
What may not have been mentioned is that copper stores seem to have a life of only about 10 years before they leak.

A stainless unvented should last over 25 years! With electric immersion backup if the gas boiler fails.

A high power Rinnai instant water heater can give your 25 li/min and takes up little space and should last over 10 years.

Tony
 
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ThermalMan";p="1895969 said:
transam";p="1895264 said:
Thermal stores will never allow a condenser to run at its best effiency ,
Did you read my previous posts? Did you understand?
Even if the store temp is set to 80C they condense over 80C of reheat time. Have a well sized DHW plate heat X fitted and the store temp can be much lower, giving condensing in 95% of store reheat.

The lastest Collins states thermal stores save 15% in fuel.

if u already have one installed thats one thing , but installing one on a new install , no would'nt bother ! there is a large estate up the road form here that had themal stores installed from new , they are gradually being taken out !

They are usually taken out by ignornant plumbers who do not understand them. As you clearly do not understand. ;) This is typical.

Hmm well every one is entitled to there opinion , thats what makes this trade ? interesting, claims & counter claims on running costs saving money effiency , as for themal stores I have installed a few(4) have you ??

And incidentally we have got one to install in April , a gledhill torrent open vented , speced by the customers son , cost approx £800 give or take part of a full heating install ? normal hot water cylinder what £150 , 6 rads ? condensing boiler 3 foot away from store ? Gledhill stated via a written answer that the store should be run at a minimumn temp of 75 degs C !

Ravenheat have won industry awards for there boilers , so what I say ? any manu will state all the reasons as to why there products should be fitted quoting various figures for effiency , & why there product is the best thing since sliced bread , themal store manus are no different there like every one else trying to flog some thing !

sales blurb is my take on most of it !
 
Try copper industries in Toome.... They do a range of thermal stores...
http://www.copperindustries.co.uk/technical-info.php

Like most they will make you a unit exactly of your design.
Go for domes top and bottom and zip it up to some unistrut so the cylinder is in effect wall mounted and then sludge is less of a problem. Have done it and is quite easy.
Then fit your own plate and flo switch.
 
You will find the warranty is taken up with an insurance company and valid if a company fails.

Will I?

You might be right, but I didn't notice that detail on the web-site when I looked. Have a search and see if you can find it will you, TM? You seem to have a lot of time on your hands.

A warranty from a limited company is worthless if the company has been liquated.
 
Hmm well every one is entitled to there opinion

An opinion not based on facts, figures or experinece is not worth a light.

And incidentally we have got one to install in April , a gledhill torrent open vented , speced by the customers son , cost approx £800 give or take part of a full heating install ? normal hot water cylinder what £150 , 6 rads ? condensing boiler 3 foot away from store ? Gledhill stated via a written answer that the store should be run at a minimumn temp of 75 degs C !

The Torrent has a DHW immersion coil, not a plate heat X. Read back on my posts you obviously don't understand. Better value stores are around than the Torrent.

A decent installer can knock a thermals store up very cheaply by assembling the parts himself. The parts are all stock items. Just get a direct SS cylinder. Or a cheap SS unvented and adda late, using the coil for the CH circuit. Read back on my posts.

Ravenheat have won industry awards for there boilers

A self congratuation industry.

knock something up ??? :)i am sure that will give joe public confidence :) As for the torrent speced by a surveyor who works for bournemouth council , will agree what does he know , I don't care , want a thermal store they can have one , have read your posts
pretty much what any thermal store manu will tell me , your entitled to your opinion ! as is every one else to theres , would not generally recommend a thermal store !
 
After reading all of this, I really want a thermal store :mrgreen:
 
After reading all of this, I really want a thermal store :mrgreen:
The first thing I notice is that several of the first responses must be from stereotypical plumbers - with the mantra "rip it out and fit a combi". Any plumber that says that to me has ended the conversation and better find the door before my boot finds his backside :rolleyes: I'm not surprised by the " there is a large estate up the road form here that had themal stores installed from new , they are gradually being taken out" comment - many plumbers don't understand a piece of pipe, and given that so many of them appear to be both lazy and ignorant of simple plumbing concepts, they fall back on the "rip it out and fit a combi" mantra, and the customer who foolishly thought the plumber might know what they are talking about goes along with it.
If you are insulted by that, then you are probably in the camp I describe. If you aren't then I suspect you have a similarly low opinion of the majority that give good plumbers a bad name. I speak as I find - I refuse to apologise to bad plumbers for the above, and don't think I have anything to apologise for in respect of competent plumbers.

Combi boilers have their place - mostly to get round an incompetent developer who could't find 2 sq foot of space for a cylinder. Other than that they have no redeeming features. First problem is that to get even a half decent DHW flow rate you need a MASSIVELY oversized boiler - in my case a 30kW boiler (min 10kW I think) for a single bed flat with a heating load of one or two kW and it still can't manage a good flow rate. Then of course, the dirty secret about condensing boilers is that due to the requirement for a minimum flow rate, you end up with a bypass valve somewhere so realistically in most installations they won't be condensing much, if at all, when running the heating - the return from the rads may be cool, but it isn't when mixed with the bypass hot flow.

And the biggest thing of all - when they break down, you have no heating AND no hot water for as long as it takes someone to fix it (just hope the factory still have spares when it's 10 years old).

And that's supposed to be good ?

A thermal store allows you to run the boiler at it's optimum. As already pointed out, you should have no trouble getting it to condense most of the time. It doesn't have to short-cycle all the time you have the heating on as the store acts as a very effective buffer. If you go for a coil type then you can have (for a while) DHW without any electricity at all - useful if you are in an area prone to power cuts.

And for me, the other factor was the ability to have backup for both DHW and heating from an immersion heater. Yes I've tested it, and yes it works.

Trust me, tenants really don't like it when they are without heating and hot water.

So having looked at a number of options, I chose a Gledhill Torrent for the flat. It's simple, simple plumbing, simple wiring. The boiler now fires up and heats at full whack for a while and then turns off altogether - no short cycling, and it runs with a cooler return temp. The shower now runs at a uniform and stable temperature - while before it was all over the place as the thermostatic valve did it's best to cope with the varying DHW temp from the boiler.
I've fitted a fully modulating pump, and TRV'd the last of the rads - the return temp is now quite low and so the store cools 'bottom up'.
The comments about Gledhill's reliability are noted - I'll see how it goes.


But back to the original question.
From the research I did before fitting the store, it seems that you can get a significantly higher transfer rate from an external heat exchanger - basically you can fit as big a unit as you need/want and easily get an output in excess of 100kW if you need it. The downsides as I see it are :
1) You need a flow sensing switch in the DHW pipe and pump in the primary side - so potentially have a minimum flow rate. That may or may not be an issue, but as someone used to being able to run the taps at a trickle and blend hot/cold as required (scrubbing dirty hands, washing paint rollers, etc) I found the inability to do so in the flat with a combi irritating.
2) If you are trying to keep the store stratified (so as to have a cool inlet temp to the boiler, or take advantage of solar) then the pumped primary of the heat exchanger is a problem. Unless you draw off DHW at the maximum rate the hear exchanger is sized for, then the return water going back into the bottom of the cylinder will be hot - and the slower your draw off rate, the worse the problem. It could be dealt with by modulating the flow rate in the primary circuit (ideally you want to restrict the primary flow rate so that the return to the bottom of the tank is not hugely higher in temp than your cold water supply), but then you are introducing more controls.

With an internal coil, the natural action is that it cools the bottom of the store to a lower temperature since the DHW is heating up as it rises through the store. So you naturally end up with a cool bottom which is great for keeping a boiler in condensing mode.
 
Me doubt if any one can offend me irritate , anoy maybe , some times ? but generally doe s not happen :)

The estate near here that have gradually had there thermal stores removed , was in many cases were due to problems with the stores them selves , boilermates I think they were all speced by the builders fairly new property ! those that I got involved with 3 , it came down to price they were offered an alternative to storage , but they went for combis there decision !! 2 were to be rented out & on my advice they both had electric showers installed , in the event of combi going pear shaped ! the 3rd person a retired person who is home all day , kept & keeps records & since the thermal store was removed he has made savings on gas ! As for the thermal store we are to fit , well the son likes to spend his fathers money £800 odd for the store , £1400 for a back boiler :) 6 rads ? heat up a 210 litre themal store for 2 X70 year olds to shower ounce a day & heat 6 rads during the heating season ?? still he knows best :)
 
As for the thermal store we are to fit , well the son likes to spend his fathers money £800 odd for the store , £1400 for a back boiler :) 6 rads ? heat up a 210 litre themal store for 2 X70 year olds to shower ounce a day & heat 6 rads during the heating season ?? still he knows best :)
There is always a measure of personal preference.

Some people just like open fires - I do, but mother doesn't like the work ! £1400 quid sounds like an awful lot of money, does that include a whole solid fuel stove, I assume it isn't just for a small water box behind the old fireplace :rolleyes: Given the problems I've had (and people I know have had), I'd prefer to avoid a combi just because of all the extra parts they introduce - most of the trouble I've had with the boiler in the flat have been down to that (not least the clever design feature of putting an electrical microswitch where drips from a valve gland will fall on it).
My brother has just effectively rebuilt an old cottage (kept four walls and the roof, everything else has been rebuilt). He's got under floor heating, a nice WBS in the lounge and evacuated tube solar on the roof, a gas boiler for topping up if needed, and a store to glue it all together - they are REALLY useful for that. The store is only a small part of the overall cost.

And for the store itself, there has to be a large element of 'novelty value' to the pricing. A 'bog standard' hot water cylinder is made by every man and his dog and so is a commodity item and priced accordingly. Thermal stores are uncommon and made by far fewer manufacturers - hence they can get away with higher prices.

Oh yes, and I missed out another benefit from a store - you can have mains pressure DHW (just like a combi) without the issues that go with a pressurised hot water cylinder.
 
the boiler in question is a Baxi condensing back boiler , with a valor electric fire front , special flue liner, inbuilt condensate pump ect ! As u say a thermal store does not require or is not under the same
regs as un vented cylinder !

There will always be a debate or argument as to what is best , claims & counter claims , ther is at the moment a 6 or 7 page debate or disagreemnt in the CC on weather compensated controls :) & it is likely to run & run !
some people cop the hump if a customer specs something or wants a particular system or boiler , me I welcome it ( to an extent ) you always get the option to say well I told U so if it go's wrong :)

We will agree on thermal stores for solar , solid fuel ect ect and certain other applications :) see u later !
 

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