T&G Shed door

[Jupiter01]

they measure the tongue which in use is inside the groove by around 9mm

OK, if we remove the 9mm from the overall width, we are left with 110mm. When two boards are inserted together, we have 220mm coverage. I am still unclear on your reference to 113mm.
I understand the principle you are describing but want to get my head around what coverage I am seeking for each pair of boards to allow for the interboard expansion/contraction.

Apologies, if I am missing something obvious and thanks for your support.

 

[big-all]

all this information is long memory information i dont have to look it up its instant information

you need an expansion gap between planks or they can pop the fixings

ok you have all the information
do not glue
leave an expansion gap
1 fitting 1/3 tongue toung end or 2 fittings 25% in from each side
allow a decent expansion gap or shave every year

all the above just my opinion from many years off experiance
if you choose another option good luck

 

[Jupiter01]

Thanks @big-all.
I’d welcome any advice or comments from others on this before I proceed. Thanks

 

[Why Not Indeed]

I used domed coach bolts on my shed door. They obviously would be very difficult to remove from the outside, but what level of security you're aiming for is for you to judge.

 

[Jupiter01]

I used domed coach bolts on my shed door. They obviously would be very difficult to remove from the outside, but what level of security you're aiming for is for you to judge.

Someone recommended the Brenton heavy duty bolt on here and I notice that it has some holes for the dome bolts

I will also be using these hinges and need some sort of "secure" fasteners for these too. Any suggestions?

 

[Jupiter01]

1 fitting 1/3 tongue toung end or 2 fittings 25% in from each side

I guess it means that the front of the door will have these indents across every board as the tongue will be exposed.

 

[big-all]

I guess it means that the front of the door will have these indents across every board as the tongue will be exposed.

the tongue is covered by the groove off the next board --do a search for "blind nailing " for the visual
iff you just mean the 2-3mm expansion gap it wont be noticible at all

you can screw from behind but best practice is thinnest into thickest
iff your backing timber is say 38mm cls and your boards are 18mm thats 56mm so 50mm screw into 38 leaves 14mm into the boards plus 2mm for head sunk into surface so 16mm now perfectly acceptable if you want flush face and should be fine but off course into the face gives you 32mm grip so so maximum possible support

 

[Jupiter01]

the tongue is covered by the groove off the next board --do a search for "blind nailing " for the visual
iff you just mean the 2-3mm expansion gap it wont be noticible at all

you can screw from behind but best practice is thinnest into thickest
iff your backing timber is say 38mm cls and your boards are 18mm thats 56mm so 50mm screw into 38 leaves 14mm into the boards plus 2mm for head sunk into surface so 16mm now perfectly acceptable if you want flush face and should be fine but off course into the face gives you 32mm grip so so maximum possible support

Aha got it!
On the gap, you said 25% in from each side. That will result in a 6.75mm gap between each board?

Also, am I okay to insert two screws in through the backing plate instead of blind nailing? I will screw in the centre so it doesn’t interfere with intraboard expansion/contraction.

 

[Diver Fred]

This is going to be a bit of a long explanation as I don't have a picture to hand. This is the way I was taught to make Ledge & Brace doors.

You have indicated that the doorway is 1600 wide. Others have guided you to the finished size of each half (Leaf) of the double doors will finish 780 wide.

Expect to cut the ledge's to 770mm long. You need the edge of the boards to extend past the end of the ledge to allow for trimming (planing) to size or expansion when wet. It will take at least one winter to sort properly.

For each leaf you will require 8 boards as 7 boards make a total width of 770mm. You will need to cut 2 boards to make up the 140mm of the last gap. Decide if wish to start with a Tonge or a Grove board. For ease I suggest the Grove board. Measure from the Grove side 72mm and cut that off Leave the edge rough sawn for now. That is your starting board.

Measure the existing doors (if any) for the distance from the top to the hinge centres if you intend to reuse the hinges. If not mark 150mm from the top – the cut side of the board is the hinge edge of the door that is the top edge of ledge. Then make a second mark from the top at 1725mm for the bottom edge of the bottom ledge. On that board mark the widths of the ledges. Divide the distance from the top mark of both the top and bottom ledges, divide that length by 2, and mark on the board from the top ledge top mark – that is the mark for the top of the middle ledge. From the sawn edge mark a line 7mm where the ledges are fitted.

Then drill one or 2 holes, you choice, to take 5 or 6mm screws 30 mm from the sawn edge between the top & ledge marks – 10 to 15mm in from the lines; or in the centre if you only use one screw*. On the ledge side, were you have made the marks put a ledge so that the top edge of the ledge is the distance from the top as I described above – between the ledge marking lines and 12mm from the sawn edge Clamp loosely and make sure the ledGe is square to the board; on the grove side. Once square clamp tightly and insert screws (5X45 or 6x45). Repeat for the remaining Ledges.

Now put the next 2 boards onto the ledges and push closely together by hand. Be aware that the T&G is Offset so you need to get the board the right way round so you don't have a gap between the board & Ledge or have to force the boards together. Nail using 45 or 50 pins, 5 nails per board into each ledge in 'X' pattern. Repeat for the remaining boards.

The last board will extend over the width you require and so will need trimming either before or after fixing, again cut to be 2mm over the size you want. That should be around 7mm over the end of the Ledge. With double doors hang both doors first then find the centre line and trim to size to leave no more than a 10mm gap after planing smooth.

Now cut 2 braces to fit between the ledges – ideally both should go so the 'Low' end is on the Hinge side of the door (if you wish to make a 'universal' door – i.e. you are not sure the door will hung from then the upper brace should run in the opposite direction (the braces look like an arrow point).

Now plane the 2mm rough edge on the Hinge side. Using 'T' hinges of at least 500mm better 600mm long fix to the door. Screw the hinge to the door at the fixing hole closest to the edge of the door and the penultimate fixing hole for now. Use 6x45 or 6x50 screws to suit. You need the hinge to fit so there is 5mm gap between door and frame.

Hang the door. If the gap is not right take the door down and re-fix the hinge using new screw holes to suit. Once happy then use 1 or 2 bolts at the frame fixing end of the hinge and 1 at the furthest end of the hinge – that gives you maximum strength.

*I was taught to always fix from the thinest to thickest timber (facing board to Ledge). If you must fix thickest to thinest (Ledge to Facing Board) then drill the ledge so that the fixing is in the centre of the distance that the facing board is over the ledge for the first and last board. For the other boards a minimum of 2 screws each one 25mm from board edges. If you don't drill for the screw fixings you will get 'Ramp Up' – a gap between board and ledge.


HTH's!

If you wish to close off the gap in the centre ask for further guidance.

 

[big-all]

Aha got it!
On the gap, you said 25% in from each side. That will result in a 6.75mm gap between each board?

Also, am I okay to insert two screws in through the backing plate instead of blind nailing? I will screw in the centre so it doesn’t interfere with intraboard expansion/contraction.

no the screws are 25% from each side the expansion gap is 2-3mm per plank

 

[big-all]

This is going to be a bit of a long explanation as I don't have a picture to hand. This is the way I was taught to make Ledge & Brace doors.

You have indicated that the doorway is 1600 wide. Others have guided you to the finished size of each half (Leaf) of the double doors will finish 780 wide.

Expect to cut the ledge's to 770mm long. You need the edge of the boards to extend past the end of the ledge to allow for trimming (planing) to size or expansion when wet. It will take at least one winter to sort properly.

For each leaf you will require 8 boards as 7 boards make a total width of 770mm. You will need to cut 2 boards to make up the 140mm of the last gap. Decide if wish to start with a Tonge or a Grove board. For ease I suggest the Grove board. Measure from the Grove side 72mm and cut that off Leave the edge rough sawn for now. That is your starting board.

Measure the existing doors (if any) for the distance from the top to the hinge centres if you intend to reuse the hinges. If not mark 150mm from the top – the cut side of the board is the hinge edge of the door that is the top edge of ledge. Then make a second mark from the top at 1725mm for the bottom edge of the bottom ledge. On that board mark the widths of the ledges. Divide the distance from the top mark of both the top and bottom ledges, divide that length by 2, and mark on the board from the top ledge top mark – that is the mark for the top of the middle ledge. From the sawn edge mark a line 7mm where the ledges are fitted.

Then drill one or 2 holes, you choice, to take 5 or 6mm screws 30 mm from the sawn edge between the top & ledge marks – 10 to 15mm in from the lines; or in the centre if you only use one screw*. On the ledge side, were you have made the marks put a ledge so that the top edge of the ledge is the distance from the top as I described above – between the ledge marking lines and 12mm from the sawn edge Clamp loosely and make sure the ledGe is square to the board; on the grove side. Once square clamp tightly and insert screws (5X45 or 6x45). Repeat for the remaining Ledges.

Now put the next 2 boards onto the ledges and push closely together by hand. Be aware that the T&G is Offset so you need to get the board the right way round so you don't have a gap between the board & Ledge or have to force the boards together. Nail using 45 or 50 pins, 5 nails per board into each ledge in 'X' pattern. Repeat for the remaining boards.

The last board will extend over the width you require and so will need trimming either before or after fixing, again cut to be 2mm over the size you want. That should be around 7mm over the end of the Ledge. With double doors hang both doors first then find the centre line and trim to size to leave no more than a 10mm gap after planing smooth.

Now cut 2 braces to fit between the ledges – ideally both should go so the 'Low' end is on the Hinge side of the door (if you wish to make a 'universal' door – i.e. you are not sure the door will hung from then the upper brace should run in the opposite direction (the braces look like an arrow point).

Now plane the 2mm rough edge on the Hinge side. Using 'T' hinges of at least 500mm better 600mm long fix to the door. Screw the hinge to the door at the fixing hole closest to the edge of the door and the penultimate fixing hole for now. Use 6x45 or 6x50 screws to suit. You need the hinge to fit so there is 5mm gap between door and frame.

Hang the door. If the gap is not right take the door down and re-fix the hinge using new screw holes to suit. Once happy then use 1 or 2 bolts at the frame fixing end of the hinge and 1 at the furthest end of the hinge – that gives you maximum strength.

*I was taught to always fix from the thinest to thickest timber (facing board to Ledge). If you must fix thickest to thinest (Ledge to Facing Board) then drill the ledge so that the fixing is in the centre of the distance that the facing board is over the ledge for the first and last board. For the other boards a minimum of 2 screws each one 25mm from board edges. If you don't drill for the screw fixings you will get 'Ramp Up' – a gap between board and ledge.


HTH's!

If you wish to close off the gap in the centre ask for further guidance.

the trouble here is he wants a rectangular frame as per post 23 rather than a standard door ???
unless i have misunderstood

 

[Diver Fred]

the trouble here is he wants a rectangular frame as per post 23 rather than a standard door ???
unless i have misunderstood

So let's ask him...

Jupiter01 - is the doors you plan to have - plain, simple Ledge and Brace or Framed, panelled door?

 

[Jupiter01]

Thanks for the detailed response. I need the detail right now. Much appreciated. I want to step through this and make sure I am on the same page. Please bear with me...

the finished size of each half (Leaf) of the double doors will finish 780 wide.

If the opening is 1600 and I am allowing - lets say - 6mm on each side, doesn't this reduce it to 1576 and hence, 788 each door? Want to be sure of the recommended gaps. Not trying to be pedantic!
I want to return to the subject of door size as I am proposing this type of overlap arrangement in the middle so that no one can see through the central gap but at the same time, it copes with expansion and contraction at the centre.

TO BE CLEAR - I am not proposing that I frame the doors as shown in this picture. Just pointing out the central lip/overlap, that I thought was a good idea.

With double doors hang both doors first then find the centre line and trim to size to leave no more than a 10mm gap after planing smooth.

Doesn't this run the risk that there will be a gap in the centre of these doors and someone will be able to see through. I thought the overlap/lip in the above will prevent this and also make it easier for me to cut the doors to size. It gives me some wiggle room.

Expect to cut the ledge's to 770mm long. You need the edge of the boards to extend past the end of the ledge to allow for trimming (planing) to size or expansion when wet. It will take at least one winter to sort properly.

In my earlier sketch and following the advice from @big-all, I have included a 6mm gap between the edge of the ledge and the T&G boards. I can make this 10mm if that is more appropriate.

I thought that if I set the gap between the door and frame to an appropriate distance e.g. 6-10mm, it will provide the space for expansion/contraction. Do you think it's still likely that I will need to take the door off after a year and adjust?

Measure the existing doors (if any) for the distance from the top to the hinge centres if you intend to reuse the hinges. If not mark 150mm from the top – the cut side of the board is the hinge edge of the door that is the top edge of ledge. Then make a second mark from the top at 1725mm for the bottom edge of the bottom ledge. On that board mark the widths of the ledges. Divide the distance from the top mark of both the top and bottom ledges, divide that length by 2, and mark on the board from the top ledge top mark – that is the mark for the top of the middle ledge. From the sawn edge mark a line 7mm where the ledges are fitted.

This is a new opening (two sets of double doors for two separate openings), as just about seen here:

It's got double studs for sides and the header of the door.
Your instructions here will determine where I fit the 3 horizontal braces shown in my sketch as I understand it. I can also see that you are suggesting that they are set in 7mm from the hinge edge. Again, just to make sure we are talking about the same section, I have proposed a 6mm inset in my sketch.

Clamp loosely and make sure the ledGe is square to the board; on the grove side. Once square clamp tightly and insert screws (5X45 or 6x45). Repeat for the remaining Ledges.

I was planning to use the 94 x 28 timbers for all braces. Let me know if you suggest otherwise.
When screwing the ledges into the T&G board, can I screw in the centre, from behind and should I insert two screws horizontally aligned? This will allow the boards to expand sideways.

Now put the next 2 boards onto the ledges and push closely together by hand. Be aware that the T&G is Offset so you need to get the board the right way round so you don't have a gap between the board & Ledge or have to force the boards together. Nail using 45 or 50 pins, 5 nails per board into each ledge in 'X' pattern. Repeat for the remaining boards.

Thanks for the tip on offset boards. I will look out for that!
I don't follow your instructions on nailing and is this necessary, if I put two screws into each board (through the back of the ledge, as suggested above)? Also, when pushing these boards together, should I not leave any gap for intra-board expansion? Wont they start to bend and bulge as they expand across their width?

Now cut 2 braces to fit between the ledges – ideally both should go so the 'Low' end is on the Hinge side of the door (if you wish to make a 'universal' door – i.e. you are not sure the door will hung from then the upper brace should run in the opposite direction (the braces look like an arrow point).

Is this the diagonal braces shown in my sketch or should they be arranged differently? You can see how they relate to the hinge side and I think that this is what you are suggesting too.

You need the hinge to fit so there is 5mm gap between door and frame.

5mm is the final gap then. I may have misunderstood earlier.

Hang the door. If the gap is not right take the door down and re-fix the hinge using new screw holes to suit. Once happy then use 1 or 2 bolts at the frame fixing end of the hinge and 1 at the furthest end of the hinge – that gives you maximum strength.

Is this the dome bolts or something else?

*I was taught to always fix from the thinest to thickest timber (facing board to Ledge). If you must fix thickest to thinest (Ledge to Facing Board) then drill the ledge so that the fixing is in the centre of the distance that the facing board is over the ledge for the first and last board. For the other boards a minimum of 2 screws each one 25mm from board edges. If you don't drill for the screw fixings you will get 'Ramp Up' – a gap between board and ledge.

The peril of reading down the passage! Screwing from the T&G board into the ledge presents a security risk as someone can unscrew and gain entry. I will screw from behind and follow your advice on the pilot hole. On screwing, is it advisable to insert two screws to each board and within 25mm of the right and left edge of each board? I was contemplating to screw each board in the centre twice (one screw above the other).

Thanks again and I look forward to your response/comments on the above.

 

[cdbe]

Build your doors in situ, hang a concrete block on the top outside corner for a few days to let them settle then clad them. If they rub or end up to close together you can plane them down. You'll need some dummy cladding on the front of the frame so you know where to position your hinges. I had to buy some parliament hinges for mine (clad in composite cement cladding) to get over the thickness of the cladding.

I'm not a joiner and I usually find the hardest part of non conventional doors and gates is the hinges - I find that mocking up a dummy "frame/door" arrangement to check it all works is helpful.

I note you still have a nice overhang of rafters - I'd keep that - really helps with keeping the water out on shed type doors. Even the tiny "canopy" on mine makes a difference.

 

[big-all]

Jupiter01​

not sure i think you mean 94x18mm rather than 28mm ??
18/19mm is a bxq/wicks/diy shed size' wood yards builders mearchants are 20.5/21mm ish